The Calico/Aloha/Mottled Naked Neck Thread

[Kev]

I hope it was helpful.

I'm still trying to learn this genetics stuff myself. My feeble mind can't seem to wrap itself around it very well.

I try reading articles in it in the web, but all those +/- and other things confuse the fire out of me. A lot of my learning is by trial. I try this one to that one, and sometimes that will throw a loop into things.

Trial is the best actually. I had a lot of trouble with some concepts until after hands on experience.

Many times I can't remember right off the genetic make up for something- single lacing vs double lacing vs spangling....

 

[Kev]

This is all very helpful, as were your explanations of the skin color associations with leg color. It's not that leg color is completely irrelevant, it's just that it's not most important to me. Also, given what I'm working with in my NN flock (quite a few white legs throughout, and blue legs in a very big cockerel - and also wanting to cross in white legged SS anyway), I'm not sure I want to work super hard on leg color compared to working on size (for production) and also feather color (for fun). (I reserve the right to change my mind later, of course. That's why it's good to be informed.)

While I can probably just pull up all your posts and systematically read them to try to learn

, is there a good reference source or primer on feather color genetics I can go to to try to build my knowledge? I know human genetics, but chicken genetics is a foreign country...

- Ant Farm

Think I commented on this sort of chicken math problem in the other thread... Big boy, but blue legs.. to keep or not... to breed or not.. ha! I do wonder if alohachicken's comment on marketability of yellow might have any influence on your decision? I'm simply so used to all sorts of chicken skin color the idea of appealing to *others* particularly for marketing/selling purposes just never registered. This is one of the things I love about open forums like this- every one has something to contribute and share.

I forgot to add, the Id gene is a sex linked dominant. Blue legs is a white skin and lacking Id. I believe SS have Id?(mottle can affect leg color but then from what I've seen, their legs seem to be sparkly white, which strongly indicates Id being present)

So your blue leg boy over SS will give 100% white skins. Daughters will develop blue legs and the sons will be white legged. It's the sex linked influence of Id from the SS. It will not be apparent on most day old chicks though, it takes a while for this kind of leg pigment to develop and for the sex linkage to become obvious.

Just to give a more detailed picture:

yellow leg over white leg= 100% white legs. and all are yellow skin carriers btw.

green leg over white leg= blue legged daughters, white legged sons. If you 'get' the skin/leg color combination you will understand why the daughters have blue legs out of this.

white leg over yellow leg= all white legs (all yellow skin carriers too)

white leg over blue leg= all white legs.

white leg over green leg= all white legs... all yellow skin carriers, plus the boys would be het for Id.

 

[draye]

Haha yes that is a very valid reason for paying attention to leg color- marketing!

I forget the history behind the start on preference for yellow skinned poultry carcasses.  Similar things happened with the American preference and eventual strong bias for white eggs with yolks as bright yellow as possible, despite white eggs originally being a 'rare' thing and truly free range chickens don't really throw yellow yolks.. more like oranges, sometimes even reddish tints. I think those are gorgeous....

Some Americans refuse to eat brown eggs....  or come up all weird things like they weren't washed or whatever.   Sigh..........

Never mind the meat from black skinned birds..   LOL

I want your thoughts on the mille fleur mottling vs mottle without the black bar by the white spot?  I may have read something about that but keep forgetting if I actually did or what they said-  see, Draye,  I have problems too!

Yes, I guess a lot if folks do.
You probably however have been studying genetics far linger than I have. Even though I say I have had 35 or so years if breeding experience, that was not really experience I guess, it was more like I fooled with breeding chickens. This is probably the longest I've stuck with it. Now I'm really trying to learn a few things.

 

[Kev]

Yes, I guess a lot if folks do.
You probably however have been studying genetics far linger than I have. Even though I say I have had 35 or so years if breeding experience, that was not really experience I guess, it was more like I fooled with breeding chickens. This is probably the longest I've stuck with it. Now I'm really trying to learn a few things.

Yeah I started paying attention to genetics when I was given several pigeon breeds when I was maybe.... 12? I noticed there being some kind of relatively predictable pattern for feather traits in the breeding and crossings and was able to create a specific body type with different feather traits from several of the different breeds.... crest from that breed, leg feathering from another breed... the eye colors from yet another breed. But had not learned of genetics by then so I did not understand the whys, hows, whats... until reading the genetics chapter in high school biology class, the light bulb just went kabooooom. Been extremely fascinated ever since.

 

[alohachickens]

It is my understanding that a true "Millie" needs to have the set pattern buff, black bar, white tip. However, if I want to keep the variance in my Alohas, I'll have to accept some random-ness as breeding specifically to one color (like Mille) means the other colors would likely be lost - as I don't have the room to work with Milles in one are and red mottled and brown mottled. How exactly one would BREED for that, I don't know, exactly? I have had it happen mostly by happy accident here! LOL.

 

[Kev]

I admit it's your alohas without the black bar that caught my eye. Mille just for some reason fails to get my fancy. Same for speckled.

I kind of like her pattern though, the black being present only on some areas like on her neck and appears to be lacking or almost lacking on her other areas?

To my eyes it also appears the black is showing up more where she probably has black details if she were not mottled- a buff chicken with some black on the neck....

Definitely a happy accident in my perspective.

 

[Kassaundra]

Think I commented on this sort of chicken math problem in the other thread... Big boy, but blue legs.. to keep or not... to breed or not.. ha! I do wonder if alohachicken's comment on marketability of yellow might have any influence on your decision? I'm simply so used to all sorts of chicken skin color the idea of appealing to *others* particularly for marketing/selling purposes just never registered. This is one of the things I love about open forums like this- every one has something to contribute and share.

I forgot to add, the Id gene is a sex linked dominant. Blue legs is a white skin and lacking Id. I believe SS have Id?(mottle can affect leg color but then from what I've seen, their legs seem to be sparkly white, which strongly indicates Id being present)

So your blue leg boy over SS will give 100% white skins. Daughters will develop blue legs and the sons will be white legged. It's the sex linked influence of Id from the SS. It will not be apparent on most day old chicks though, it takes a while for this kind of leg pigment to develop and for the sex linkage to become obvious.

Just to give a more detailed picture:

yellow leg over white leg= 100% white legs. and all are yellow skin carriers btw.

green leg over white leg= blue legged daughters, white legged sons. If you 'get' the skin/leg color combination you will understand why the daughters have blue legs out of this.

white leg over yellow leg= all white legs (all yellow skin carriers too)

white leg over blue leg= all white legs.

white leg over green leg= all white legs... all yellow skin carriers, plus the boys would be het for Id.

This is music to my eyes, basically any other color mixed w/ yellow gives a color other then yellow. I know yellow is preferred in NN, but it isn't my favorite. I like white, pink, blue, green, or black over yellow.

 

[Kev]

This is music to my eyes, basically any other color mixed w/ yellow gives a color other then yellow. I know yellow is preferred in NN, but it isn't my favorite. I like white, pink, blue, green, or black over yellow.

Haha! Glad to help

personally I usually never notice the leg color, unless exceptional.. solid blacks with legs colored other than black for example. (just noticed today there is a solid black juvenile with green legs?!) It's because the gene for black feather also likes to put black pigment on the legs. Apparently how some black chickens have legs of other colors is not yet well understood.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Think I commented on this sort of chicken math problem in the other thread... Big boy, but blue legs.. to keep or not... to breed or not.. ha! I do wonder if alohachicken's comment on marketability of yellow might have any influence on your decision? I'm simply so used to all sorts of chicken skin color the idea of appealing to *others* particularly for marketing/selling purposes just never registered. This is one of the things I love about open forums like this- every one has something to contribute and share.

I forgot to add, the Id gene is a sex linked dominant. Blue legs is a white skin and lacking Id. I believe SS have Id?(mottle can affect leg color but then from what I've seen, their legs seem to be sparkly white, which strongly indicates Id being present)

So your blue leg boy over SS will give 100% white skins. Daughters will develop blue legs and the sons will be white legged. It's the sex linked influence of Id from the SS. It will not be apparent on most day old chicks though, it takes a while for this kind of leg pigment to develop and for the sex linkage to become obvious.

Just to give a more detailed picture:

yellow leg over white leg= 100% white legs. and all are yellow skin carriers btw.

green leg over white leg= blue legged daughters, white legged sons. If you 'get' the skin/leg color combination you will understand why the daughters have blue legs out of this.

white leg over yellow leg= all white legs (all yellow skin carriers too)

white leg over blue leg= all white legs.

white leg over green leg= all white legs... all yellow skin carriers, plus the boys would be het for Id.

This is music to my eyes, basically any other color mixed w/ yellow gives a color other then yellow. I know yellow is preferred in NN, but it isn't my favorite. I like white, pink, blue, green, or black over yellow.

Haha! Glad to help

personally I usually never notice the leg color, unless exceptional.. solid blacks with legs colored other than black for example. (just noticed today there is a solid black juvenile with green legs?!) It's because the gene for black feather also likes to put black pigment on the legs. Apparently how some black chickens have legs of other colors is not yet well understood.

SUPER helpful, everyone! I had read that leg color "chart" elsewhere, but thanks for repeating it - @Kev, I think you had mentioned the blue legs allowing sexing of offspring before (maybe on the NN thread), so that is potentially a variable to consider. Can you clarify the green part? How do you get green again - is it blue over yellow? (Do I understand correctly from your post #81, about green-legged birds being yellow-skinned plus no Id to prevent pigment showing on legs? Do I also understand correctly that "No Id" is a recessive lack of Id that is sex-linked?)

Anyhow, Dozer's red and he's a good leader (I have 3-4 that I consider "good leaders that are big" just from observations at only 10 weeks - I know this may change, but it's good to think of options). I may be with you, Kassundra - it seems that my NNs with the yellowish skin are the black and almost black ones (like JAUNDICE yellow - I thought they were sick at first, but then again, I'm teaching liver pathology right a the moment, so I may be a bit fixated...). The legs are that black over yellow color, and I like that look as well! But yeah, I seem to enjoy having lots of different leg colors in my flock. Gotta get a green one bred next (Dozer may get some yellow-legged girlfriends for a while if it's from blue over yellow.)

I'm not selling anything to anybody, this is purely for me and my extra large commercial freezer (purchased specifically for chicken and rabbit, in addition to great big batches of homemade butter, ratatouille and tarka dal, and edamame from the garden - though the rabbit housing has been delayed, so rabbit raising has been put off...). I haven't really thought about whether I prefer yellow or white skin on my eating chickens - as I think they have always been yellow on what I've purchased (which makes sense from what alohachickens and everyone is saying about American preferences). I'm not foolish enough to assert that I know for certain that I won't be affected by skin color, but honestly, I'm more likely to be put off by knowing the chicken than by its skin color. (Still new to this - killing cones have arrived and first cull will be of the New Hampshire boys when they get a little bigger, around Christmas). Part of me wants to raise a Silkie flock for meat, though, having had them in soup in Singapore. (Which is slightly weird given how often they are fuzzy pet chickens, it seems!!! Hey - I could work on show girls! NOOOOOOO!!! CHICKEN MATH, GET THEE BEHIND ME!!!!!)

I wouldn't normally be fussing so much about color (though I certainly like pretty chickens!) - but I have 7 cockerels, and they are (almost) all promising in the size and temperament department, giving me color as an additional criteria that may help me with my decisions...

- Ant Farm

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

OK, @alohachickens, I was looking at the details of the Speckled Sussex SOP today for fun, and noted that in the SOP, you want to avoid birds with too much white - and that if you see a significant amount of white in a juvenile, they are too white after their molt.

I could care less about the SS SOP (I have hatchery SS, and only for the purposes of crossing with NN - and it looks like I have all pullets, too!). But it left me wondering - when selecting SS to breed in for the purposes of the aloha-type markings, is more white better, or are you looking for the more subdued white that is preferred the SOP? (All five mostly look the same, but at 5 weeks, some are darker across the back than others.) I'm not culling anyone right now or anything, I'm just wondering...

Also, second question - I know, I may be a bit dense, but could you explain the role of the New Hampshire Reds as a contributor? (I may have some really good ones this spring, and will have options...)

- Ant Farm