The EE braggers thread!!!

[Hangtown Farms]

I just finished reading your posts on the Ameraucana thread. Well said! I was in your position last week (hiding under my chair). I just couldn't help myself I had to post regarding the EE/Non standard debate. It just blows my mind, and doesn't make an ounce of sense. If you breed a Ameraucana to an Ameraucana you have to get an Ameraucana! Genetically, there is no possible way to get an entirely different breed on chicken! Technically, you can only get a non-standard bird. Is there any other breed of chicken that calls non-standard birds an entirely different breed? I haven't found one yet. With this breed I think it's a case of "Buyer Beware." Since there are a lot of people out there breeding non-standard birds you have to do exactly what you did and ask for pictures of the parents to check for yourself. People seriously interested in purchasing a breed of any chicken would do their research and ask for pictures of some of the birds in the breeding pens. Most hatcheries do list their birds as "not suitable for 4-H" when they don't come close to meeting the SOP for that breed. To me that means something about their birds doesn't adhere to the SOP and you wouldn't be able to show them. Even our local feed store had their Ameraucanas also labeled as Easter Eggers in parenthesis. I still scan the thread over there because I like Ameraucanas and may want to get some someday. But this is the most ridiculous argument I have ever come across regarding chickens. An EE is a mutt chicken (and I love them dearly) that has some genetics other than Ameraucana, making it a different breed of chicken altogether. So please come come out from underneath your chair Hangtown Farms. Regardless of our opinions on this matter I know we will be well received over here. Owners of EE's are some of the nicest people I have met on BYC. I love this thread!

Well... Since Easter Egger is a catchall term and not a name of a breed...the term Easter Egger only indicates the presence of the blue egg gene, but not necessarily a pristine pedigree... I think this is why non-standard Ameraucanas still fall into the Easter Egger category. I feel like in a lot of ways, it's like the term "Pit Bull" in dogs. Pit Bulls are not a breed... it's just the name people use to refer to ANY dog that fits the Pit Bull reputation, and appearance... specifically that of the American Staffordshire Terrier, whether they are pure Amstaffs or not.

If someone breeds two Ameraucana's and gets a percentage of chicks that do not conform... then something is going on in the original Ameraucana pair's genetics that should call into question the purity of the breeding pair, because purebreds are supposed to breed true 100% of the time, not counting identified and predictable stacked recessives, like splash chicks. And if they don't, then their pedigree is really not all it's cracked up to be and the whole Ameraucana vs EE debate is out the window anyway. But this is really difficult to do in a breed that is by all accounts still very new, and should probably be considered still in development.

I can see both sides of the argument.
Yes, if you breed a 100% guaranteed purebred Ameraucana to another, the offspring must be purebred Ameraucana. But the breed standard says they only have to breed true 50% of the time - which goes back to Gifa's comment about some bad blood in the line somewhere if you ask me. I can see the occasional "sport" but if you can't get a lot closer to 100%, there is probably too much "if I add this other breed into the line just this one time to improve such and such a feature" going on in the Ameraucana lineage. I've seen it in other breed threads. Want to get the weight up, add some of this "other breed" - never mind that the "other breed" was NEVER used in the development of the breed they are working on. But they still want to say the offspring are the "original" breed they started with. Mix and match all you like, but come up with a new name if you ask me.

This is from the Ameraucana Breeders Club web page:
"Further, even if a bird meets an Ameraucana standard breed description, but doesn’t meet a variety description or breed true at least 50% of the time it is considered an Easter Egg chicken."

So it seems they agree that an Ameraucana can be an Easter Egger

I imagine they are hoping to up that 50% by removing the "non-standards" from the breeding pool. The easiest way to do that is to call them something OTHER than Ameraucana. There can't be an APA Easter Egger breed until there is a repeatable process to breed them and know that you will get what you EXPECT to get (not withstanding that 50% Ameraucana thing). But EEs can be any breed crossed with any other breed as long as there is some Araucana or Ameraucana showing up in some fashion - beard, muff, blue or green eggs.

But I'm not posting this over in the Ameraucana thread

Bruce

What gets me about the whole Amie vs EE thing is that there is no such thing as a chicken that is ONLY Amie. It is a mixed breeding of genetic characteristics to obtain a particular and desired breed or type of chicken.

The creator of the breed discussed the various breeds that he used in an article that I cannot find, again. He stated that he did not use the Auracauna of South America due to it's associate fatal alleles, as well as other considerations.

Who is to say that a trait from x-number of generations past don't pop-up in a particular bird? THAT bird would still be pure-blooded Amie, but wouldn't show pure traits. Does it mean the bird is now a Rock Cornish Game? No. It is still an Amie, it just isn't "perfect".

I am a tall, slender, blonde-haired, blue-eyed Caucasian. Am I Brad Pitt? Nope! But I am pure-blooded Human. I have no dog or billy goat genes, so I am still pure. Am I any better than anyone else, based solely upon my pedigree? Nope. Anybody getting all bent about this Amie vs EE thing is wasting their time and energy, and I won't let them waste much of mine.

I like the Amie, and the EE is a derivative from my not keeping my Amies locked and segregated from the rest of my flock. I desire olive green eggs, so I intentionally add in brown egg-layers to arrive at that end. The resulting product is a full-bodied, robust, meaty chicken with vrey good egg-laying capabilities. WIN-WIN! How can I leave out the fact that they are very attractive birds? WIN-WIN-WIN! hehe I'm going to keep on experimenting until I die or can't keep my chickens, anymore.

Wait until the eggs hatch from my Hippy Hair Polish, and white-bearded Amie Hen pairing. I am so excited to see if I get hippy hair and fluffy beards. I bet THAT is going to be a cool chicken! I also bet that it'd get boos from "Purists", and I really don't care. hahaha!

Oh! I guess that I should point out that more than 75% of my birds are identical to the pics on the Amie Breeders Club site, for their respective color. They mostly meet the SoP, so....I don't feel superior, at all. I have more fun in this EE thread than in any other, tho the Sebright folks are pretty friendly, too. I have a scruffy-ish Golden Roo, and posted his pic, just because I'm proud of him. They posted that he was actually a "pretty good bird". I was very happily surprised. I would think (with what Lord Sebright did for evolution) Sebright breeders would have more rights to snobbishness than anyone else, and rightfully so. BUT, they didn't act that way. Maybe Amie breeders are picked on, at shows? Maybe they are tired of that, and they respond angrily, because of it. If they come in here, let's just show them how much fun we have with chickens!

I actually do agree that they should be called Easter eggers. My point though. I really feel that the hatcheries need to change the names they are using. When you read they are non standard it drives me crazy. I do not mind the non standard term at all when it is in fact a bird that is non standard.
do to this reason I think it should be black and white. If the hatcheries change then I am completely fine with the term non standard.
It just needs to be one way or the other I think and all across the board.

 

[Gifa]

I don't know if you have ever had a EE roo, but my tow are the best roos ever. They have the sweetest personalities. I'm sure there is a exception, but I bet if your daughter plays with him as he grows he will turn out to be as big a pet as mine.


Beauregard

Oh M'lord! Mr. Beauregard is such a handsome Roo!

He actually looks exactly what I might expect the Roo version of my Yolanda to look like...

This is Yolanda. She has the same... uh... buffiness...uh... around the breast, and the same occasional blue feather here and there on her wings and tail.

 

[K Epp]

Oh M'lord! Mr. Beauregard is such a handsome Roo!

He actually looks exactly what I might expect the Roo version of my Yolanda to look like...

This is Yolanda. She has the same... uh... buffiness...uh... around the breast, and the same occasional blue feather here and there on her wings and tail.

She is so pretty. I Think he is what they call a Lemon Blue Splash or I think that was it was. He is my favorite and the Beta roo. I have threatened my Brown Leghorn roo if he gets out of line he is out of here. I plan on breeding him to my pullets when they start to lay to see what I get.


This is Penny. She is rotten and expects me to hold her up to the bird feeders for a snack.


Dolly is Beau's girl and roost with him every night.

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote:
Very nice, you have some very differently colored birds there!

Did you buy them or did you breed them?

 

[lualshannon]

I just finished reading your posts on the Ameraucana thread. Well said! I was in your position last week (hiding under my chair). I just couldn't help myself I had to post regarding the EE/Non standard debate. It just blows my mind, and doesn't make an ounce of sense. If you breed a Ameraucana to an Ameraucana you have to get an Ameraucana! Genetically, there is no possible way to get an entirely different breed on chicken! Technically, you can only get a non-standard bird. Is there any other breed of chicken that calls non-standard birds an entirely different breed? I haven't found one yet. With this breed I think it's a case of "Buyer Beware." Since there are a lot of people out there breeding non-standard birds you have to do exactly what you did and ask for pictures of the parents to check for yourself. People seriously interested in purchasing a breed of any chicken would do their research and ask for pictures of some of the birds in the breeding pens. Most hatcheries do list their birds as "not suitable for 4-H" when they don't come close to meeting the SOP for that breed. To me that means something about their birds doesn't adhere to the SOP and you wouldn't be able to show them. Even our local feed store had their Ameraucanas also labeled as Easter Eggers in parenthesis. I still scan the thread over there because I like Ameraucanas and may want to get some someday. But this is the most ridiculous argument I have ever come across regarding chickens. An EE is a mutt chicken (and I love them dearly) that has some genetics other than Ameraucana, making it a different breed of chicken altogether. So please come come out from underneath your chair Hangtown Farms. Regardless of our opinions on this matter I know we will be well received over here. Owners of EE's are some of the nicest people I have met on BYC. I love this thread!

Hello Outrun Acres,

Three days ago, I subscribed Ameraucana thread, and am deeply sorry that I did! The reason for my joining the group was to find out about "true Ameraucana birds, so to be able to purchase some. Your response to my questions was very kind, and helped me to find this thread. Also, another very pleasant breeder contacted me via the PM., which I really appreciate both responses; thank you!

My question on the Ameraucana thread was asked honestly, and innocently, without any intentions of starting a nasty debate. I was completely unaware of the never ending, very unpleasant, and at times quite rude disagreements. My question in short was: "if they have, ABC. accepted colors, they are classified as;Ameraucana, and if they are any other color, they are EE. I am having difficulty understanding how they can be classified as different breed if they are the progeny of the same parents?" Rules of genetics can not be changed at someone's whim.

I subscribed to BYC in the hopes of finding good, responsible breeders to purchase the birds I would like to have in my life. I feel very lucky to have found 2 excellent breeders of Orpingtons, and HRIR, to add several birds to my small menagerie. Past Nov., I bought a lovely, gorgeous Ameracuana pullet from a person and paid good money for, which I believe she is worth every penny of it. Yes, she started to lay bluest of the blue eggs. But, recently I've found out that she is NOT an Ameraucana, but an EE. Actually, I am no longer sure what she is. The main reason for me to be on the other thread was to learn, and hopefully find a breeder; instead, unknowingly, I touched a very sensitive nerve which ended up causing yet another controversy. My, oh my! it was only an honest single post! It was a mistake; but, a good lesson to learn from. I will never go onto the Ameraucana thread ever again; even if they are the only ones left on the face of the earth! What I feel sorry are the poor birds..

I am very involved in the dog show world, and we look at the new comers into our breeds with gratitude, and treat them kindly; answer their questions however much they may seem funny, or unbelievable. If we shun and chase them out of our breed, they will go on to the next one, and we will end up being the looser. New comers into any breed of animals are the future of that breed. If we don't have the novice to mentor, share our quality animals with, to continue to improve the breed, and to carry our banner, it shall become no-more in good time..

 

[Basel]

Hello Outrun Acres,


My question on the Ameraucana thread was asked honestly, and innocently, without any intentions of starting a nasty debate. I was completely unaware of the never ending, very unpleasant, and at times quite rude disagreements. My question in short was: "if they have, ABC. accepted colors, they are classified as;Ameraucana, and if they are any other color, they are EE. I am having difficulty understanding how they can be classified as different breed if they are the progeny of the same parents?" Rules of genetics can not be changed at someone's whim.

Firstly, let me say that I am NOT an Ameraucana breeder. I have two gorgeous full AMs from a breeder off the ABC site. I love them. I also have two EEs. Love them too.

I understand the difficulty of saying if I have two pure AMs [meaning they are to the std] and breed them and the color is wrong it is an EE. However that is the breed's [yes they are a breed approved by the APA] standard and definition. More colors are being developed to be within the breed. Getting upset here and trying to change the APA's designation isn't going to be successful.

Regarding the above "...difficulty understanding how they can be classified as different breed..." statement, that is actually not a true statement and is part of what trips some people up. What is untrue about it is that an EE is NOT a breed. An EE is a catch-all but not a breed. No such thing in the APA.

And of course they aren't, they have all kinds of mixed parentage and physical features and color eggs. Non-standeard colors, IF they truly came from two full AMs could be called non-standard AMs but are still not accepted as part of the AM breed by the APA. Not until or unless that color is accepted one day.

EEs are wonderful birds! Why worry about calling them something the APA doesn't recognize and instead just love them for the great birds they are?

 

[Hangtown Farms]

Hello Outrun Acres,

Three days ago, I subscribed Ameraucana thread, and am deeply sorry that I did! The reason for my joining the group was to find out about "true Ameraucana birds, so to be able to purchase some. Your response to my questions was very kind, and helped me to find this thread. Also, another very pleasant breeder contacted me via the PM., which I really appreciate both responses; thank you!

My question on the Ameraucana thread was asked honestly, and innocently, without any intentions of starting a nasty debate. I was completely unaware of the never ending, very unpleasant, and at times quite rude disagreements. My question in short was: "if they have, ABC. accepted colors, they are classified as;Ameraucana, and if they are any other color, they are EE. I am having difficulty understanding how they can be classified as different breed if they are the progeny of the same parents?" Rules of genetics can not be changed at someone's whim.

I subscribed to BYC in the hopes of finding good, responsible breeders to purchase the birds I would like to have in my life. I feel very lucky to have found 2 excellent breeders of Orpingtons, and HRIR, to add several birds to my small menagerie. Past Nov., I bought a lovely, gorgeous Ameracuana pullet from a person and paid good money for, which I believe she is worth every penny of it. Yes, she started to lay bluest of the blue eggs. But, recently I've found out that she is NOT an Ameraucana, but an EE. Actually, I am no longer sure what she is. The main reason for me to be on the other thread was to learn, and hopefully find a breeder; instead, unknowingly, I touched a very sensitive nerve which ended up causing yet another controversy. My, oh my! it was only an honest single post! It was a mistake; but, a good lesson to learn from. I will never go onto the Ameraucana thread ever again; even if they are the only ones left on the face of the earth! What I feel sorry are the poor birds..

I am very involved in the dog show world, and we look at the new comers into our breeds with gratitude, and treat them kindly; answer their questions however much they may seem funny, or unbelievable. If we shun and chase them out of our breed, they will go on to the next one, and we will end up being the looser. New comers into any breed of animals are the future of that breed. If we don't have the novice to mentor, share our quality animals with, to continue to improve the breed, and to carry our banner, it shall become no-more in good time..

The main issue over there is no one can agree what to call them.They need to focus on the issue as club members and try and get hatcheries to change there names. Then the Ameraucana breed will have many more fans imo. There is to much negativity with the breed do to incorrect names and people not getting what they want , expect or pay for. Hey sounds like the government

 

[BroosterSpringsteen]

OK, so pardon my "French" but how the hell can a hatchery sell chicks with tails to the public or the farm/feed stores as Araucana?? BY DEFINITION they are RUMPLESS! I've not gone to see chicks at a farm/feed store so have not had the opportunity to educate them as to the likely mislabeling of their "Ameraucana". I suppose it would be futile anyway since so many post here that it never changes. I have to believe some have TRIED to set them straight.

I know right!!?
Araucanas are rare, expensive, and have traits that are not displayed by any of those chicks. It's a total sham!! I've considered talking to the feed store about it, but I don't want to be the know-it-all chicken girl telling the old farm boys they're wrong. I need to stay on good terms with my feed store. I think I'll ask them what hatchery they order from, and then write a mean letter.

 

[BroosterSpringsteen]

I subscribed to BYC in the hopes of finding good, responsible breeders to purchase the birds I would like to have in my life. I feel very lucky to have found 2 excellent breeders of Orpingtons, and HRIR, to add several birds to my small menagerie. Past Nov., I bought a lovely, gorgeous Ameracuana pullet from a person and paid good money for, which I believe she is worth every penny of it. Yes, she started to lay bluest of the blue eggs. But, recently I've found out that she is NOT an Ameraucana, but an EE. Actually, I am no longer sure what she is. The main reason for me to be on the other thread was to learn, and hopefully find a breeder; instead, unknowingly, I touched a very sensitive nerve which ended up causing yet another controversy. My, oh my! it was only an honest single post! It was a mistake; but, a good lesson to learn from. I will never go onto the Ameraucana thread ever again; even if they are the only ones left on the face of the earth! What I feel sorry are the poor birds..

One thing you learn after you've been on BYC for a while is that there are friendly threads, and less friendly threads. I can't even count how many times I've posted pictures of chicks in the "What gender is this?" forum to get opinions on gender, only to get comments like, "Your chick's legs are yellow-ish", or "it's feathers look too brassy" or "Your chick is not a Wyandotte. It has a single comb". And I have to respond, "Yes, I know it has a single comb. Wyandottes occasionally throw a single comb. That doesn't mean it's not a Wyandotte. That means it's an undesirable Wyandotte. Or...undesirable to you. I'll probably just keep it anyway. Can you please just tell me if it's a boy or a girl?" I think the folks who breed and show are always in critic mode, and can't accept that most of us who raise chickens just want pretty chickens and pretty eggs. We see a picture of a breed and think we'd love to have some in our flock. If the chick hatches and isn't totally up to standard, they can't understand why we wouldn't cull. I realize there are folks who breed and sell sub standard birds. That's a different issue. There's nothing wrong with raising sub standard birds as a non-breeder because you just love chickens. All breeds hatch chicks with non-standard qualities. If there were a breed that hatched 100% perfect all the time, there would be no need for competitions at all.

We need those critical breeders. We need those opinionated folks determined to maintain the quality of the breeds they love. If we didn't have them, all our chickens would be mutts, and we wouldn't be able to pick and choose birds with the qualities we love. You'll find snobby chicken folks in every single breed thread on this site, but the Ameraucana folks have a particular gripe, and I can't entirely blame them for being sick of talking about it. If you ask me, the blame for this entire argument lies with the hatcheries. And I agree, if they haven't already, the ABC should consider pursuing action against the hatcheries. EEs are not non-standard Ameraucanas. They're not a breed at all. I couldn't keep a beagle, and breed it with every dog in my neighborhood, and call all the puppies beagles just because they have some beagle traits. That being said, I LOVE my EEs. They're wonderful birds. I think it's because of the hatchery issue, that ABC folks so object to non-standard colors in birds from 2 Ameraucana parents. They have to work harder than people who raise other breeds to maintain and educate about their breed standard, because there is so much misinformation. Some folks are better at educating more politely than others.

 

[TW1Kell]

Wow. This makes me hope that one of mine is a rooster! We currently have a Columbian Wyandotte rooster and he is quite retched. He's a beautiful bird but not what I had in mind personality wise. From all the pictures I have seen on this thread, EE roosters are some of the prettiest chickens I have seen.

Outrun, are you talking about the "sneak attack rape" habit that so many young Roos exhibit? If so, I am told (by old-timer raisers) that they grow out of that. I am praying that it's true, because my younger Amie Roos are at that stage, and spend lots of time in the isolation cells, (I should point out that I am former military and then a Correctional Officer for a total of 34 years) thinking about their crimes. (I know, they aren't thinking about anything but doing it all over again) We can always hope, otherwise, they might have to find another home. I seem to have trouble eating someone that I raised from a 2-3 day-old baby. I just can't say, "That one dies, that one lives." Maybe I've seen too much death. I almost cried when something killed Lacey, the horribly injured lil Red Sexlink that I nursed back to health who would come talk to me and wait for a ride on my shoulder. haha! Ex-Army Captain and Sergeant, and SWaT CO. hahaha Crying over a chicken. My biker buddies all think it's amusing, but...they all draw pistols and investigate when we hear cackling from the "yard" and are hanging out with a beer in the backyard.