The Evolution of Atlas: A Breeding (and Chat) Thread

[oldhenlikesdogs]

I guess the other thing that grows well here is that darned Oregano. I don't use weed killers, so maybe I will have an entire yard full of it eventually. Looks nice though.

I find that the raised beds (about 8" above ground and dug down another 6 inches) not only grow great veggies, they are easier to weed and care for as well.

My raised beds are about 3 foot tall. So easy to garden in them.

 

[1muttsfan]

There are many vaccines, if not almost all, that only prevent disease, not infection. That does not mean they are not doing their job. Reducing mortality (deaths) and morbidity (illness) can greatly increase productivity, comfort and enjoyment of a flock. Vaccines train the immune system to recognize pathogens, and it is the immune system that does all the work to eliminate or control the infection. If the immune system is not functioning well, then the vaccine will not be as effective. This is one reason why vaccinations are not completely effective. Another is that there are organisms that set up shop inside tissues such as inside nerve cells where they are inaccessible to the immune system once they get into the body, which can lead to permanent carrier status. To develop individuals that are completely immune to some infections may take centuries, or may never happen. Diseases such as Polio, Influenza, Measles, Tetanus, etc. which have been around for centuries before vaccinations were developed still ravage unvaccinated populations. If vaccinations allow individuals to survive such infections, then there is a place for them.

I certainly agree that once birds are infected by diseases such as Mareks, they should not leave the premises.

 

[speckledhen]

Whatever vaccines do or don't do, I choose to avoid them. It would kill my enjoyment of my birds if I knew they were carrying something. I don't want to reduce mortality of infected birds. I want them to die. I want all carriers to die off so they can't pass on stuff to others.
But I've never had anyone really answer the question so I can understand the answer to this: if the vaccine prevents the Marek's symptoms, how do you know if the bird is a carrier or not a carrier of it, has it or doesn't have it? In my book, masking symptoms is a bad thing. If you are masking symptoms, then you may be passing on carrier birds to other flocks. I know that is simplistic, but I'm a simple chicken keeper. KISS is my method of just about everything, LOL. And it has to make logical sense to me. So much about this Mareks' thing just doesn't.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

That's why I don't vaccinate and we cull all Mareks symptomatic birds. I generally get one so a year in my young birds. I must have brought it in years ago from a swap meet bird. I definitely learned that lesson. I haven't had a rampant Mareks problem. I also keep turkeys that are said to offer some protection because they can carry a milder version of Mareks, one that I believe the vaccine is made from, and it can help birds build immunity to it. I definitely don't want vaccinated birds that can shed the virus but still be fine. It's all a matter of choice and how you view you birds I suppose.

 

[getaclue]

There are a few people on here who's flock got Marek's. They've bred the survivors, and most of their resulting chicks have survived well, even later when introduced back into the flock. They do develop some degree of immunity. Another person was saying that, in their area, the local Amish have been breeding for resistance for quite some time, so any chicks/birds you buy from them, are immune. That person bought some of their birds to incorporate into their own flock, to breed for resistance as well. If I remember correctly, I think it's Silkies that are immune to Marek's, so that person got some Silkies, and was breeding them in with their flock for resistance too.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

I have read of people saying they had birds with Mareks that survived. I have a hard time understanding how a bird with a viral cancer survives, and goes on to live many years. Is there such a thing as remission in Mareks?

The other thing I wonder about is those that get a neocropsy done on a deceased bird that comes back positive for Mareks. Do carries show some changes? Or are those diagnosed with Mareks always have and active case of Mareks? Can a bird die of something else but still said to have Mareks? I though most died as young birds?

 

[speckledhen]

Can a bird die of something else but still said to have Mareks? I though most died as young birds

Yes to both of those.

I don't believe that "survivors" who did contract the virus are immune. I believe they are carriers. Unless the ones who did not seem to get symptoms were tested for the virus, no one can know if they carry or not. The way to breed for resistance in chickens is to keep birds who did not contract whatever it is you are breeding for resistance against. If they have symptoms and live, they are not resistant. They are carriers.

Lisa, labs are continually putting Marek's diagnoses on their tests when they only diagnosed visually. They are misdiagnosing a LOT of birds. Birds can have little tumors throughout the body and it be nothing but a severe bacterial infection that spread through the bloodstream. I had a discussion about it with a very well-known vet who has been on the labs about this very thing. He says they do this all the time. State labs are not here for us. They are here for commercial flocks. That is their only concern, what might affect a commercial flock. Why do they care if they scare the heck out of a backyard flock owner with a wrong diagnosis because they were too lazy to really do tissue testing?

 

[getaclue]

Carriers can recover, and can continue on as normal, however, that does not mean they're out of the woods. Yes, they are carriers for life, and it does eventually catch up with them, even if they've survived the initial outbreak. That's why it's so important to get the survivors breeding, so the resulting chicks have immunity. When those chicks are introduced back into the Marek's environment, some will succumb to the disease, but a larger number won't. When those chicks grow up, and produce offspring, the resulting offspring will have more resistance, and most will survive being exposed back into the carrier flock. By the fourth generation, there is virtually total immunity.

 

[speckledhen]

Even if that worked, that's a very long term process. I'm not up for it. So far, it's a non-issue. I like Lisa's approach. But, she doesn't sell birds as far as I know. I have to sell extras. And the dang broodies are ramping up already. Now, I think Jill may be broody in addition to Brandy.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

Even if that worked, that's a very long term process. I'm not up for it. So far, it's a non-issue. I like Lisa's approach. But, she doesn't sell birds as far as I know. I have to sell extras. And the dang broodies are ramping up already. Now, I think Jill may be broody in addition to Brandy.

I don't sell. That comes with a whole nother level off headaches as you have dealt with. I either keep everything, or we butcher extra roosters. I always try to keep them if possible.

It's another reason I like hatchery birds as I don't need to deal with all those extra roosters. My heart can only take so much. I did ask the place I get mine from, MPC, they said extra males go to an Amish farm to be grown up. I guess that's better than other options.

I occasionally hatch a few, but not too often.

I've had a steady stream of broodies for a few months now. It keeps my broody breaking pen in constant use.

Thanks for all the Mareks information. It is a complicated disease with so many different thoughts on it. It doesn't help that it comes in many strains and forms.