The Legbar Thread!

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Hi Flying,

it sounds like a really interesting approach. Will you be able to maintain the autosexing with the types of crosses that you are planning?

By doing a back cross for a couple generations, it will bring back the autosexing and the cream gene. I might try to get my hands on some dark brown leghorns to use too, just because I don't know how cream affects the mahogany of the dark browns. That is what I love about poultry genetics, if you want a new color or variety, there is always an easy outcross if you know what you're doing

 

[ChicKat]

By doing a back cross for a couple generations, it will bring back the autosexing and the cream gene. I might try to get my hands on some dark brown leghorns to use too, just because I don't know how cream affects the mahogany of the dark browns. That is what I love about poultry genetics, if you want a new color or variety, there is always an easy outcross if you know what you're doing

This is a great strategy. I know that I am interested in a lot of the same things...good egg productivity, healthy disease immune birds, auto-sexing, the appearance, and -- blue eggs.

for someone who doesn't know could you expand for me on the cream gene? I think I have seen that "the lighter the rooster the better"? "No white is supposed to be on the face"? Are these accurate statements from what you know? Ear lobes white or cream. (how dark a cream?)

Also, some other posters have said that the flopping comb is not a desirable trait, and I prefer smaller combs. (smaller Wattles than the cream legbars have as well...just my preference) So selectively smaller combs would be my choice.

 

[ChicKat]

Does anyone else with cream legbars have pullet with larger more prominent tail-feathers than cockerel? I will try to get some comparison pictures of them to illustrate what I mean.

 

[ChicKat]

I ordered two of the color charts directly from the Ameraucana Club, reasonable price (2 for $5 or $3 each incl mailing). According to the letter that came with the chart, they are precisely matched to the eggs for printing.

Did you get good matches from the chart to eggs that you have?

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

This is a great strategy. I know that I am interested in a lot of the same things...good egg productivity, healthy disease immune birds, auto-sexing, the appearance, and -- blue eggs.

for someone who doesn't know could you expand for me on the cream gene? I think I have seen that "the lighter the rooster the better"? "No white is supposed to be on the face"? Are these accurate statements from what you know? Ear lobes white or cream. (how dark a cream?)

Also, some other posters have said that the flopping comb is not a desirable trait, and I prefer smaller combs. (smaller Wattles than the cream legbars have as well...just my preference) So selectively smaller combs would be my choice.

I don't know too much about the cream gene myself, other than it lightens gold to a nice cream color. I, myself will be selecting for an inbetween shade of gold and white/soft gold color. No white in the face means no positive white from the earlobes leaking into the face like the white faced black spanish are known for. The earlobes should be a nice bright white, the cream colored earlobes on some birds just isn't attractive, and when you are used to the nice bright white, it just looks dirty.

The flopped comb is good on hens, just not cocks.It looks like my cockerel is going to have a big, thick comb, I just hope it doesn't flop. I have a rose combed brown leghorn hen that I will cross into the legbars as part of the production line. She is a great layer, and since she is hatchery stock I am guessing that she isn't pure for the rose comb so she could throw single combed birds. Some folks have said to avoid the rose comb because you lose track of the blue egg gene, but I plan to raise up the best hens anyway and only keep the blue egg layers that look more like a legbar. Since they are your birds, you can breed for smaller combs if you'd like. I like the big floppy combs on hens and the nice upright combs on the cocks. It is all just for fun anyway

 

[redchicken9]

Fun reading all this. Wanted to mention, after re-banding a few days back, I separated my flock into 2 bunches. Larges versus medium, small. I have one very small female and one smaller male. Anyone consider making bantams?

 

[GaryDean26]

The 7/8th blood rule is pretty standard for live stock registries. The requirements vary though.

For example a French Alpine Dairy Goat that is crossed out to a not French Alpine goat has to be bread back to registered Alpine goats until it reached the 7/8 Alpine blood to again gain membership in the registered Alpine Herd. At that point they cannot be registered as a French Alpine though. They are designated as an American Alpine to indicate that they meet all the breed standards have registered breedings from parent and grandparent stock that meet all the breed standards, but that they are not of the pure French blood lines. They American Alpines are usually and improvement on the French line for size, milk production, etc. but people still pay a premium for the pure French Lines because they know what they are getting that way. And can start their own breeding program from a known point.

The kinder Goats are designated as an open herd which mean you can still create the bread from scratch and register it. The First cross is with a Pygmy Meat Goat and a Nubian Dairy goat. The cross produced a medium sized dual purpose goat. The first cross is called a 1st generation Kinder Goat. Breeding two 1st generation goat produces a 2nd generation goats. Two 2nd generation produce a 3rd generation and after the 6th generation the new line is accepted into the heard as a Full Kinder. How ever any breeding back to a Pygmy or Nubian is not allowed. All selections have to be made from a Kinder goat after the original crossing. And First generation can only be from full blood registered stock.
Mini Dairy goats are also an open heard created from Dwarf Nigerian Dairy goat and a Full size Dairy goat. they produce a medium sized Dairy goat, but the rules set up for that herd are different. They allow you to breed back to the Dwarf Nigerian or Full sized dairy goat and actually prefer that the finished line be 60-75% blood from the full sized breed.

Since the Cream Legbar was accepted into British Poultry standards before 1950 it qualified as an English Heritage breed. They would make it more like closed herd status of the French Alpine. Breeding it to anything else you can never get back to the "French" Alpine Status. The new blood line is an "American" Alpine.

Like the Kinder and Miniature Dairy Goats the Cream legbar needs to have a balance between the foundation breeds (i.e 50% for the Kinder is required and 60-75% required for the mini dairy goats). Because I don't know what % each of the foundation breeds are in the Cream Legbar lets say 25% Plymoth Rock, 50% Leghorn, and 25% Chilean Hen (note: the Chilean Hens were never called Araucanas but the Cambrige Breeding program and were NOT the source of the Auracanas in the UK. The British Araucana breed was developed from unrelated stock that came later to the UK on trade ships).

If those percentages make up a Cream Legbar and we breed back to a Leghorn a couple of time we end up with something more like 10% - 80% - 10% which despite the outwards appearance would not be the same thing as you started with. It is the same way a once a French Alpine is crossed out is can never regain the French Line status, crossing out a Cream Legbar to any other breed would disqualify its English Heritage Breed Status.

 

[GaryDean26]

for someone who doesn't know could you expand for me on the cream gene? I think I have seen that "the lighter the rooster the better"?

The Cream gene is designated as "ig". It is a dilutor of gold. It is found in Cream Dutch and Citron Spangled Hamburgs.

It was introduced into the Gold Legbars by Michael Peace who crossed the Golden Legbars with a Pearl Leghorn Rooster to increase egg production. Brother sister mating of the Pearl Leghorn Rooster produce about 40% cream offspring. The Chilean Hens that the Prof. Punnett had recieved also had the cream color. The experimental legbars were crossed with the Chilean hens to see if the cream color was caused by the same gene in both breeds. Punnett proved them to both be the same gene (which he named "ig"). The off-spin of the cross of the Cream colored experimental Legbars and the Chilean Hens was the Cream Legbar.

The research on the "ig" gene is why the Cream Legbar has cresting and blue eggs and the Silver and Golden Legbars were never crossed with the Chilean Hens.

 

[redchicken9]

Great information Gary Dean!! I'd like to do some reading on this. Where could I find original material?

 

[corvidae]

Gary, I'm with Red--can you recommend some sources for further reading on chicken genetics? Is there, perhaps, a good book or website resource for studying up on this?