The Legbar Thread!

[gotro17]

My problem is that I have 75 new chicks that hatched in the last 2 weeks that I wanted to sell, but I don't know if I could sell them in good conscious as ccl's. And I have 120+ more eggs ready to go in the incubator, but I don't know if I should even hatch any more. I may have to flush this entire breeding group. I'm hoping someone can tell me if I have anything here worth using. I have several other breeds from greenfire that I'm very happy with, but I'm not sure about these. I'm hoping that I'm just freaking out about nothing, but I'm not very optimistic at this point.

IMHO- I'm not seeing that many males. For now, I'd go with the lighter ones, with no eyeliner as boys only...that's my experience, at least. I have plenty of girls with small head spots, but all have eyeliner...my boys don't. They're all from GF, but 2. Hope this helps

 

[rooboo]

could you post photos of your adult cream legbars? or are you just concerned about/unsure because of the various colour patterns of your male chicks?

The adults seem to look ok, and I'm using three different roosters for breeding. The color variations are not just limited to the males either, the females are several different shades also. My original ccl's that I got from another breeder were much more consistently marked, but had some egg shell issues that I thought I could clear up with some new genetics, but these Rees birds seem to have blown up on me. When I first received the Rees birds I thought they were pretty mixed up, but I didn't start worrying too much until they started laying green eggs, even though the breed standard allows for blue or green eggs, I had never gotten green eggs from my first ccl's. The eggs have been considerably smaller too.

 

[rooboo]

IMHO- I'm not seeing that many males. For now, I'd go with the lighter ones, with no eyeliner as boys only...that's my experience, at least. I have plenty of girls with small head spots, but all have eyeliner...my boys don't. They're all from GF, but 2. Hope this helps

Thanks gotro, I think I have that same scenario here. My initial thought was to only keep the clearly marked chicks to improve on the auto sexing traits, but with all the different colors and markings I'm not sure which ones to keep, because even the girls with well defined stripes have several different down colors.

 

[All Ball]

From what I've read on this and the cream legbar thread, down color is not an issue. My 9 chicks, from pre-Rees birds, were instantly sexable, yet the boys were very different colors - one cinnamon, one grayish, one blondish. That shouldn't be an issue as far as selling. I'd suggest you post your pic on the cream legbar thread, where people who developed the proposed SOP can help you.

The issue I've seen with Rees autosexing has been girls with incomplete chipmunk stripes, and some issues with eyeliner... But they will know better. Don't trash them yet! But its great you are being sensitive to the autosexing problem - something we really should try to nip in the bud.

 

[rooboo]

From what I've read on this and the cream legbar thread, down color is not an issue. My 9 chicks, from pre-Rees birds, were instantly sexable, yet the boys were very different colors - one cinnamon, one grayish, one blondish. That shouldn't be an issue as far as selling. I'd suggest you post your pic on the cream legbar thread, where people who developed the proposed SOP can help you.

The issue I've seen with Rees autosexing has been girls with incomplete chipmunk stripes, and some issues with eyeliner... But they will know better. Don't trash them yet! But its great you are being sensitive to the autosexing problem - something we really should try to nip in the bud.

Thank you for your response, I didn't know there was another thread, maybe I'll post there and see what kind of answers I can get there. Obviously you understand my concerns. In a perfect world, I would mark these chicks and photograph them to see how they develop individually, but that is a daunting task. Your observations of the pre-Rees lines are exactly what my concerns are. I also feel that the auto sexing in the earlier lines was much more black and white. I'd hate to see that aspect of the breed get destroyed, it would take away a lot of the "Lustre" of the breed. It also makes me wonder if the auto sexing traits are included in the SOP.

 

[GaryDean26]

Hi again! I am raising a mind flock complete with: CL, Bielefelders, BCM, Australorps, golden laced wyandotte, lavender Orpingtons, lavender Cochins, olive and Easter Eggers. I'd like to keep one or two cockerels but am trying to decide on which one: BCM, CL or a Bielefelder...or all 3. My flock, with them included, is at 25. All 3 are still young~ between 6-10 weeks, so they're all sweet. What is everyone's experience with their Roos? Means and Biels seem to have the best reps... I'm also contemplating the lavender Orpington or Cochin just because they're so pretty

I would say with a flock like you have to go with the rooster that is the prettiest and most pleasant to be around. Breed reputation won't be able to determine this for you. One of the worst mannered roosters I ever had was from a breed that was best knows for the good disposition of the roosters. To be fair, ALL the roosters we ever saw from that breed except one were well mannered. Likewise breeds with a poor raport produce a few delightful roosters. The cream Legbar is no different than any other breed I have owned in terms of roosters. Most of really well mannered but some are not. Some are more curios than others, some more flighty than others, etc. So wait and see.

 

[GaryDean26]

....I'm not real familiar with what the auto sexing chicks should look like, but I am getting so many different down colors and markings that I just don't know what I should be looking for. I understand about the spot on the head and the chipmunk stripes, and the eye liner,but it seems like I have everything but consistency. So if someone could possibly point me in the right direction on what I should keep from this hatch and what should not be used for breeding. I have 2 Rees roosters and 1 earlier greenfire rooster over 18 mostly Rees hens, and this is 9 of the about 25 chicks that hatched today. Some of the others are fairly wet yet, so this is the best picture I can get until tomorrow.

Welcome to Cream Legbars...Yes, the first thing I noticed with them was the wide range of down color and markings.

The creator of the breed noticed the same thing and published and article in the Journal of Genetics that included his findings on the two main down colors (Light & Dark).

One of the most important measures of quality in a flock in uniformity. As uniformity increases quality increased. A breeding line that has been started by a single hen and a single cock and breed with out bringing in new blood for 30 years will have a high degree of uniformity. That is NOT what we currently have in the Cream Legbar. Everyone (even Jill Rees) is mixing birds from one line with birds from another with hopes that something good will pop out. These mixed lines take work to refine and make uniform.

The early days of the Autosexing Poultry Club of Great Britian breeders would toe pump the chicks that had the best marking as a chick to help them in selecting breeders and standardizing on a single down color in their flocks. I would NOT recommend culling by down color though. My Marans Mentor told me to never cull by down color and I use that same rule with Cream Legbars. It is a lot easier to clean up down color than it is to improve size, type, vigor, etc.

As far as what to look for the head spot, the eye liner, the dorsal stripes, and the color. The larger and more consentrated the head spot on the male the better. Lighter to no head spot is better on the female. The wider and clearer the eye liner on the female the better. The more blurred or broken on the male the better. The wider and clearer the dorsal strip on the hen the better, the more blurred and broken the better on the male, the lighter the ground color on the male the better. The catch 22 is that as you improve one gender the other gender backslides because what what makes clear stripes on a pullet make more clear stripes on a cockerel too. So...choose what markings you want to work with and focus on them. Once you are down to you set of colors rather than 7-8 sorting becomes easier.

 

[rooboo]

...

Welcome to Cream Legbars...Yes, the first thing I noticed with them was the wide range of down color and markings.  

The creator of the breed noticed the same thing and published and article in the Journal of Genetics that included his findings on the two main down colors (Light & Dark).  

One of the most important measures of quality in a flock in uniformity.  As uniformity increases quality increased.  A breeding line that has been started by a single hen and a single cock and breed with out bringing in new blood for 30 years will have a high degree of uniformity.  That is NOT what we currently have in the Cream Legbar.  Everyone (even Jill Rees) is mixing birds from one line with birds from another with hopes that something good will pop out.  These mixed lines take work to refine and make uniform.  

The early days of the Autosexing Poultry Club of Great Britian breeders would toe pump the chicks that had the best marking as a chick to help them in selecting breeders and standardizing on a single down color in their flocks.  I would NOT recommend culling by down color though. My Marans Mentor told me to never cull by down color and I use that same rule with Cream Legbars.  It is a lot easier to clean up down color than it is to improve size, type, vigor, etc.  

As far as what to look for the head spot, the eye liner, the dorsal stripes, and the color.  The larger and more consentrated the head spot on the male the better.  Lighter to no head spot is better on the female.  The wider and clearer the eye liner on the female the better.  The more blurred or broken on the male the better.  The wider and clearer the dorsal strip on the hen the better, the more blurred and broken the better on the male, the lighter the ground color on the male the better.  The catch 22 is that as you improve one gender the other gender backslides because what what makes clear stripes on a pullet make more clear stripes on a cockerel too. So...choose what markings you want to work with and focus on them.  Once you are down to you set of colors rather than 7-8 sorting becomes easier.
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Thank you for your explanation, I also came across something that says that the spot on the males' head is preferred to be in a V shape. Is that true? If so, would keeping a cockerel with a well defined V be a high priority to keep for improvement in the auto sexing traits and work out other issues after, or should type and coloring be more important? Something else that I hadn't mentioned before is that I had several Rees legbars directly from greenfire that had crooked toes. Is that more or less carried by either the rooster or hen, or should none of these be used for breeding? I suppose that's the million dollar question on what to go after first. I wish they would settle on the standard and get it published so that everyone would at least know what direction we need to go in that respect. I'd hate to rely on the "proposed" standard just to have it tweaked in one direction or another for colors or type. The earlier imports that I have are also strictly blue egg layers, but the Rees birds are many different shades of blue and green. That allowance in the standard seems to be pretty loose. Generally speaking, the autosexing trait was a major role in the development of the breed, but it's something that would be almost impossible to prove for the standard.

 

[GaryDean26]

The V-shape marking on the head is what you look for on the pullets. Males should NOT have a v-shape on the head.

I know that some people will disagree with me, but I have never breed a chick with crooked toes. I have always culled the ones with crooked toes. Foot problems are a known early sign of inbreeding. The Breed standard was established the PCGB and published over 60 years ago. No need to wait for a new standard. The APA standard is going to describe the exact same bird as the PCGB standard. Standards are written by the breeders to tell the judges what to look for in the show pen. The judges DON'T write a standard to tell the breeder what to look for in the nesting box. The breeder is the one in the driver seat and they are the one that knows the bird best and are expected to know how to breed them.You don't need a standard to tell you what color egg is preffered to to tweak your birds one way or another. They are your birds and if you work with them you will learn their strengths and weakness and will make a lot of tweaking that is required to improve the flock weather or not it is something that the Judge can evaluate in the show pen.

 

[otakalhasas]

The V-shape marking on the head is what you look for on the pullets. Males should NOT have a v-shape on the head.

I know that some people will disagree with me, but I have never breed a chick with crooked toes. I have always culled the ones with crooked toes. Foot problemsa rea known early sign of inbreeding. The Breed standard was established the PCGB and published over 60 years ago. No need to wait for a new standard. The APA standard is going to desrcibe the exact same bird as the PCGB standard. Standards are written by the breeders to tell the joudges what to look for in the show pen. The judges DON'T write a standard to tell the breeder what to look for in the nesting box. The breeder is the one in the driver seat and they are the one that knows the bird best and are expected to know how to breed them.You don't need a standard to tell you what color egg is prefered to to tweek your birds one way or another. They are your birds and if you work with them you will learn their stregths and weakness and will make a lot of tweeking that is required to improove the flock weather or not it is something that the Judge can evaluate in the show pen.

A quote by the esteemed Percy Roberts of AKC dog show fame - "The Standard is the blueprint, the Breeder is the builder, the Judge is the building inspector". Same thought for showing chickens (or cats, cows, horses, whatever)!!!!!!