The Legbar Thread!

[nicalandia]

that's why the barring is messed and the main culprit is the RSL which has BPR blood so the barring gets messed about along with the RED of the RIR that's in RSLs and sometimes the RSL can be RIR x Sussex (Columbian) so then you get a so called Legbar that has Columbian Hackles as well are the barring and its becomes a real messy experience

So that's why my point here is lets just strive and stick to what is supposed to be a TRUE Cream Legbar

RSL(RedSexLinks) dont have BPR(Barred Plymouth Rock) blood in them, they would be Black barred(with some Red Barring) if they had it, now there is RIR blood in them ofcourse and another Silver Columbian(Sussex, Delaware, Columbian Wyandotte)

here is how a "Golden Columbian" Legbar cross looks like

this male is Golden(S/s+) Heterozygous columbian(s+ from legbar parent/ S and Co from Silver Columbian parent, not from RSL hens)

Following rooster's genetic make up S/s+ e+/eb Co/co+ Ig+/ig B/b+ source https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/766578/which-cream-legbar-rooster-do-i-keep

you can expect the same Bird but with Red Barring if you cross a Legbar rooster to Red Sex link hens

and you are right. some of the UK breeders are doing very very bad breeding practises, this rooster is clearly golden(S/s+) single Barred(B/b+) and heterozygous Columbian(Co/co+) on a side note you can see how Golden(S/s+) males can have nice lemon colored hackles and saddle

I got the eggs from a breeder in Newent, Gloucestershire, UK

nice Columbian Leghorn from my Dier Friend Wieslaw

 

[1muttsfan]

There have been previous discussions here about the development of color varieties other than cream. Sorry if you consider that "ripping", quite honestly I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are and have no intention of being forced into breeding to someone else's ideals

 

[Habibs Hens]

Sorry I meant Black Sex link

Grandfather stock of RIR X BPR

They give the Famous Black Rock Hybrid Hen

 

[nicalandia]

Sorry I meant Black Sex link

Grandfather stock of RIR X BPR

They give the Famous Black Rock Hybrid Hen

oh I see.


in any case the Barring gene found on the Barred Rock is the one you guys desire because it lends for light grey barring when in homozygous form.

 

[dretd]

with all due respect to everyone's preference

but this is the whole point of the cream Legbar breeders group

to get the Cream Legbar to be as close as possible to what it was first bred as

and dark bar was not what was meant to be for the Cream Legbar

don't get me wrong if you want dark bar then you go for it

but then it wont be a true Cream Legbar

Just as the Araucana is a breed that is referred to as Araucana, True Araucana and the Ameraucana (all being different variations)

if you choose to breed a Dark Cream Legbar the first thing is it wont be classed as cream colour second you would have to submit it into the APA for consideration and even then it would prob be recognised as a different breed variety rather than a Cream Legbar brining in the New name for Real Cream Legbars to True Cream Legbars

So in the spirit of correction of this breed I think its in the best interest if all breeders to strive to create the correct Legbar not a personal preference one (not that im saying you cant, yes you can, but it wont be a CLB)
(now to see how many people rip into this post)

With all due respect, I am not intending to 'rip' in to your post, but rather present a second point of view for you to consider--please be patient there are several parts.

What I have heard you say is that what the Americans are working with is not a 'Real' Cream Legbar and anything that does not meet your understanding of English breed standards is not 'real'. You have also said that the eggs should be blue (even though your own standard is for blue, green or olive) so I have to admit I am a little confused. You have politely suggested that 'we' discard everything we have and start over with 'quality' stock and were disappointed when we pushed back at you and did not want to take your advice as you are just trying to be helpful. From my point of view, the most helpful thing you could do is to volunteer to approach breeders of quality stock and convince them they need to go through all of the hoops and expense on their end to get their flock acceptable as an exporter. That is the hard part for us and if there was a readily available source or list of breeders that is able to ship to 'Joe-Shmo' in the US, 'we' could pool our resources and ship direct. Perhaps when your lovely eggies hatch and grow out next year you will be kind enough to volunteer to do this for us as we clearly need help.

What I really wanted to point our is that any breed, when imported in to a new country, will by necessity go through some adaptive change:

- One influence is breeder preference--what they think is pretty or useful. Use Marans as an example. The French standard (and they are a French breed) calls for feathered shanks yet the English version calls for clean shanks. Why the difference? Not sure. But I suspect that the Majority of English Marans breeders would take offense if a frenchman told them that they don't have 'real' Marans. There are other expamples I could go in to detail on (Brahmas and Wyandottes are American but have undergone changes in the UK and look different from the 'real' breed standard and then there are the Heritage vs German New Hampshires to look at). Now one could take a postition of all of those foreign exports as being not 'real' examples of the breed, or I suggest another approach and look at them as beautiful examples of the English or German or whatever version of the certain breed in question.

Since you brought it up, perhaps we could have a discussion sometime when you have a few days about all the variations of Araucanas--its not as simple and starighforward as you may think.

-Another change is the necessary physical adaptations that have to take place for a bird that comes from one environment and has to adapt to another. It could be that birds that are of the best type did not hatch or die in transit because they are not as hardy as a more wild-type bird ( I won't even go in to the possibility of epigenetics).

Lets compare and contrast England vs just my state in the US. England is a Goldilocks Utopia. Its climate is relatively even and that is what the Cream Legbars have been bred for/raised in. I live in Colorado (CO) on the front range. The lowest elevation in CO is about 3300ft. At 5100 feet, my home is about 1000 ft higher than the highest point in the UK. Last year my highest temp was 103 F (40 C) and my lowest was -29F (-34C) and our average annual precipitation is 15 inches total (yes its very dry here with accompanying low humidity) and we are very sunny with around 300 sunny days a year. My point is that in my location I have to have chickens that will survive and thrive in very hot and very cold weather at a higher altitude and a dry climate. If the ideal breed standard for CL can't make it in my climate, then I will have to make due with whatever hardy facsimily can survive. If what lives strays too far from breed standard it will not be a CL. But if what survives here is a darker pigmented (dark-barred) chicken that still has two copies of the cream gene and reasonably fits the breed standard, I fail to understand why it is not a CL anymore given that a clean shanked Marans is still considered a Marans.

I kindly suggest that you may want to set a spell and try to put my moccasins on, walk around and think what my point of view might be. How hard is it to import birds? How hard is it to breed birds that are not adapted to my climate? Are there examples of other breeds that have small changes and thrived in a new country with modifications from the original breed? I have always found it helpful to consider the point of view of other folks and to seek what their reality is insetad of simply cleaving to my own point of view. I appreciate you presenting your thoughts and point of view for consideration and I hope that you are willing to consider my points and perspective as well.

 

[nicalandia]

I wonder why when creating the normal Legbar their creator used the "Barred Plymouth Rock" instead of the Cuckoo or Barred Leghorn? the cuckoo leghorn traces its history way back at 1870

 

[dretd]

I wonder why when creating the normal Legbar their creator used the "Barred Plymouth Rock" instead of the Cuckoo or Barred Leghorn? the cuckoo leghorn traces its history way back at 1870

Who can know the thoughts of anyone?

I suspect that they used the Barred Rock because they already had been working with the breed--that was the stock they had and they already understood the genetics. They had published a paper already on the 'Gold Barred Rock': http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/19/337.pdf

SO: Perhaps it was easier for them to autosex using a breed that had more distinctive barring reather than cuckoo, maybe they were able to obtain the original stock more easily, maybe the birds themselves were easier to handle, maybe they like the dual-purpose nature of the Barred Rocks, maybe they used the red ears as a secondary visual marker, maybe there were less unknown genetics hidden in the Barred Rocks whereas the Leghorns were more muddled making their experiments harder? Any or all of the above and probably some that I have not thought of.

 

[graciesmum]

 

[graciesmum]

These are my two 3 week old cream legbars, and my lavender pekin lol

 

[dretd]

These are my two 3 week old cream legbars, and my lavender pekin lol

Ohhh, they are very cute. I am amazed at how fast they grow! Looks like you have a nice little set-up for them!