The Legbar Thread!

[ChicKat]

I think that the third edition contains illustrations ChicKat, but I'll confirm. We do have a few b/w photographic images from the same time period though, revealing that the illustrations included in the British Poultry Standards 3rd addition are very nicely done.
A gentle note of warning to all, as awesome as these copies are...please don't copy anything directly from copywrite protected works unless their license date has come due. There are others who know the time frames much better than I do, but I think most are 50 to 100 years. If you want to own some of these beautiful historical works, there are still many to be purchased through internet searches, specialty stores, and even easy to find sites like ebay.

Off topic: I just put all 6 of Lucy's tester eggs into lockdown! It's the first time I haven't had any quitters before LD. I can't wait to see who hatches and whether Lucy, as a light gold with silver grey fluff bird, carries cream

Good LUCK with Lucy's eggs... can't wait for the pictures........ Wow.

And -- do you have good sources to viable early pictures of Cream Legbars?? It would be very nice if you could make those sources available-- maybe through the clubhouse?

Regarding the Cockerel and Hen in the original Punnett article, the Cockerel has a very long back - compared to everything I have seen, and both the Cockerel and Pullet shown in the picts. are slimmer -- Mine, males and females - from the start have always been stockier chickens. (Is that partly a 1930-50's thing when humans and animals were smaller and thinner?)

 

[redchicken9]

ChicKat, I thought about this yesterday, but I figured I should give it a day. When I type in the word omlet in my search engine, I get the UK location for omlet on ~page 3. When I type in Amazon, I still hadn't found the UK site at page 6. This is just to say if you and I search for material pertaining to the CLs we get what is most commonly looked at here in the USA, which explains some of the material that HaHaUthinkso can more readily access (yes, I am still guessing he/she is in the UK). Nice part, having folks in the UK helping find materials may uncover some new things, at least for some of us.

To whom may read (ie. not a message to ChicKat, just my own general rantings or perhaps ravings (humor)), what else I've been thinking about is a complete sidebar.

However, for kicks, I live in Northern CA, let's say Sacramento for recognition. In a rough sense, I am neither closer to the UK (London is 5136mi/ 8264km) than I am to Japan (Tokyo 5299mi/ 8528km). Had you thought the North Pacific Ocean is so immense?

Let's say I go to Miami, Florida for a wedding. There could be friends or family from places like Venezuela or Nicaragua that live closer to Miami, FL than I do.

Years ago, when I asked friends from Pennsylvania, what city is the center of the continental US, I'd hear Chicago, the most. They were familiar with the east coast and often stated, do you know how much land mass goes east to northern Maine? As I knew them personally, I knew they lived and traveled only on the east coast. They'd never seen the mid-west, rocky mountain west, the pacific west, or south, for that matter. Having also traveled, but other directions, I thought St. Louis, MO. Looking it up today, with the caveat coastline changes, it is a tad farther west, roughly Lebonan, Kanas. Point here, my country is a huge world. Much of it unseen by me and most US citizens.

OK, and this is even farther off. Some of you have heard this, and of course, it depends on the year. If the states were ranked into world economies, California often ranks between 5th and 13th largest in the global economy. Currently I'm seeing 9th mentioned most frequently. California sits behind Brazil and the UK, and in front of Russia and India. So even though I don't originate from CA, I live in a powerhouse state for business, information, technology, education, wealth, etc.

Yet, even though I live in this state, I also admittedly live under a rock. My internet is satellite, but fortunately I have it. The nearest human medical treatment center is 25 minutes (18mi/ 29km) away, same for pharmacies, banks, libraries, etc. For contrast, the nearest veterinary hospital is about 5mi/ 8km. Yes, animals out populate humans in this area and are part of the wealth, along with land, olives, rice, and fruit and nut trees. A few of us on this internet site, live even more remotely, and of course, there's the opposite, city, suburbs, etc. and a myriad more of differences.

With this in mind, I will always be limited in knowledge and experience. Sharing what you got, just closes a tiny fraction more of the gap. When I contribute it makes me part of the conversation. Build on my ideas, their ideas, agree, disagree, be silent, improve on information, summarize, conclude, carry forth, claim your attitude about yourself or others, but understand knowledge is expanding, and partially in everyone's domain. Let's be super aware, no one has it all. When it comes to CLs, I am doubtful anyone could. I doubt all the information is gathered and/or yet researched or found. Recognize we contribute. This is the way of most things, community, science, religion, socialism, capitalism, etc. To me, that's what my role is. To contribute or to facilitate. Ideally to learn.

 

[ChicKat]

You think EdeG did it like that, you take what you have and improve by breeding until you have something you are happy with OR do not call yourself a breeder. These lines are not going to mix easily you are inviting a $hit storm and put yourselves back to day 1.

Questions: #1. What would be damaging to mix lines of Cream Legbars? How would a $hit storm occur? - Wouldn't a genetic diversity produce a more healthy result over the long haul?
#2. Could you shed any light on the fire at Punnetts that you had mentioned earlier?
#3. Is there any information from the Punnet & Pease days about the egg production of the original Cream Legbars? I have seen some slight evidence on internet browsing that the bluer the egg, the fewer eggs the hen is able to produce. I have heard a number of people who have had Araucanas (presumably similar to the "Chilean Hen" of Punnet's source for blue eggs) abandon the breed due to scant egg production.

I have great respect for the work done by Ms. de Gray -- although the light birds that resulted look a bit faded to my eye (see following link 2/3 down page) https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/gallery, and the crests a bit fuller than the neat ones I prefer from the original's that I got that were Greenfire Farms (via Highview Ranch in Dripping Spring) - I think she was the green-leg-band. That certainly shaped my taste.

I see how the 'we' is very important for the breed....but what happens when the 'we' diverges from what the 'I' wants to raise?? (sounds like Spock - 'the good of the whole is more important than the good of the one' Or something similar....LOL - I loved Star Trek)


I read someplace that Ms. de Gray was strongly encouraging CL breeders to aim for at least 180 eggs per year. (as in an egg every-other-day) - I think that is good, but not great... I'm wondering if others have thresholds that are higher. My thought was that one of the reasons that the Leghorn breed was used was for high egg production. I guess if you subtract molt time and broody time that is not bad....however, I think that a larger number of eggs would be better... I guess it depends on a number of variables such as age of hen and the number of years that 180 eggs were produced. I have had two pullets that thus far have far higher production - although the eggs are not large/extra large. For my part, I would rather have higher frequency, smaller eggs.

Last but not least - does anyone have a picture - B&W or other of the original CL hen? Once, I think I saw a flock picture. As KPenley stated we need to be careful of peoples copyright - but a link to a page isn't an infringement of copyright. I think the original cockerel picture posted earlier by HaHaUthinkso is VERY enlightening - (but then I'm repeating aren't I?)

Thanks. Especially for people's thoughts on eggs/production of hens.

 

[redchicken9]

Yikes, I better post some chicks or something. Too many lengthy posts. How about an evening shot, and a blurry one of my soon to be mama goat trimming some hedges? Both she and my other are due ~May 23, likely sooner and with multiples (if all goes well). I'm bursting with anticipation of baby goats!

 

[ChicKat]

redchicken9

nice picts.

 

[KPenley]

Good LUCK with Lucy's eggs... can't wait for the pictures........ Wow.

And -- do you have good sources to viable early pictures of Cream Legbars?? It would be very nice if you could make those sources available-- maybe through the clubhouse?

Regarding the Cockerel and Hen in the original Punnett article, the Cockerel has a very long back - compared to everything I have seen, and both the Cockerel and Pullet shown in the picts. are slimmer -- Mine, males and females - from the start have always been stockier chickens. (Is that partly a 1930-50's thing when humans and animals were smaller and thinner?)

Yes, of course I have sources! We actually talked last Fall about the "skinny" versions of chickens that we found in the early photos. Could be time of year, lack of modified foods/less corn, most poultry was free ranged/scraps fed, or like you said the fact that most everyone was smaller! Give me a bit to look everything up since I didn't actually download everything we were sent last year. I have the Punnett article referenced a few pages back as well as the one on Cream Plumage, and "The Blue Egg" which has awesome color plates of eggs! Those don't have more CLB pics though.
I think Mr C has posted some of it at the clubhouse, but it might have been the Historical boards, again I'll check. Some things we don't have permissions to publish yet, like the Autosexing Annuals, but some will available this year. Sorry to be so vague lol.

I think this was posted recently, but a great reference source of free older articles regarding poultry is here: http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=94644
poultrychat.com is kind of like the UK version of backyard chickens and it's full of Poultry Club of Great Britain Officers, award winners, and knowledgeable old timers.

Great analogy H! No matter how many wonderful tidbits we discover or are sent there is still a wealth of knowledge out there! Best wishes with the kids!

 

[redchicken9]

redchicken9

nice picts.

Edited the long post, so you know it was my general public rant. For Kermit the frog, it's not easy being green. Some days it's not easy being me. Having a positive feeling of esteem for others, what they are saying, why, and where they are coming from (not only in the sense of geographic place) is an ethic choice. Somewhere in the last 100 posts, some parts of things, have raised this voice inside me that for the moment isn't very quiet. Respect is both given and received; tolerance is about equal treatment of others.

 

[HaHaUthinkso]

Questions: #1. What would be damaging to mix lines of Cream Legbars? How would a $hit storm occur? - Wouldn't a genetic diversity produce a more healthy result over the long haul?

There are so few lines so you have in effect a number of line bred flocks with the odd influx of leghorn blood There
are those who will say that this isnt so as they have bla bla but bla bla is not a reliable source. If you cross birds of
differing line bred flocks uncontroled then all the faults will rise to the surface and there will be a mess, this mess will
be sold on and create even more mess. It is pandoras box.
Buy your chicks grow them on and breed for points keeping records and culling hard, outcross to a suitable bird when he
carries a trait you need which will be around year 3. 2014 will see the 3rd line enter the US in as many years and there
has been no time to work on line 1 properly yet.

#2. Could you shed any light on the fire at Punnetts that you had mentioned earlier?


Punnet left the Legbar project as it was no longer a challenge and Pease took over. He continued on the CLB project
at home and a fire destroyed his incubators etc. Both P and P had a flock of CLB's which were amalgamated to create the
resulting standardised bird.

#3. Is there any information from the Punnet & Pease days about the egg production of the original Cream Legbars? I have seen some slight evidence on internet browsing that the bluer the egg, the fewer eggs the hen is able to produce. I have heard a number of people who have had Araucanas (presumably similar to the "Chilean Hen" of Punnet's source for blue eggs) abandon the breed due to scant egg production.

I have not looked as this as I am interested in the showbird aspect rather than comercial. Everyone goes on about the Araucana but the question
I ask is. If there was already a blue egg laying bird in the uk why did they use the Chilean Arucana, there is a lot more to that imo. This question
can also be asked when comparing the Legbar image and CLB image, it took more than an Araucana as we know it to influence that much of a
change in type ??


I have great respect for the work done by Ms. de Gray -- although the light birds that resulted look a bit faded to my eye (see following link 2/3 down page) https://sites.google.com/site/creamlegbarsonline/gallery, and the crests a bit fuller than the neat ones I prefer from the original's that I got that were Greenfire Farms (via Highview Ranch in Dripping Spring) - I think she was the green-leg-band. That certainly shaped my taste.

As do I and hope she continues doing the good as it helps people to understand the bird she obviously loves

I see how the 'we' is very important for the breed....but what happens when the 'we' diverges from what the 'I' wants to raise?? (sounds like Spock - 'the good of the whole is more important than the good of the one' Or something similar....LOL - I loved Star Trek)

You adopt your standard ard and take an image of type from within a reasonable time frame of when the bird was standardised. SET IT IN STONE (whats star treck )

I read someplace that Ms. de Gray was strongly encouraging CL breeders to aim for at least 180 eggs per year. (as in an egg every-other-day) - I think that is good, but not great... I'm wondering if others have thresholds that are higher. My thought was that one of the reasons that the Leghorn breed was used was for high egg production. I guess if you subtract molt time and broody time that is not bad....however, I think that a larger number of eggs would be better... I guess it depends on a number of variables such as age of hen and the number of years that 180 eggs were produced. I have had two pullets that thus far have far higher production - although the eggs are not large/extra large. For my part, I would rather have higher frequency, smaller eggs.


I think it is important to remember the Legbar was created to be autosexing and egg production was added. If the Cream had not appeared and become facinating then the CLB would not exist. SO we have a bird that was created for one purpose doing something they did not set out to do. To be fair to the CLB you can not demand 250 eggs and that it stands for a judge :0)

Last but not least - does anyone have a picture - B&W or other of the original CL hen? Once, I think I saw a flock picture. As KPenley stated we need to be careful of peoples copyright - but a link to a page isn't an infringement of copyright. I think the original cockerel picture posted earlier by HaHaUthinkso is VERY enlightening - (but then I'm repeating aren't I?)

Not yet but am looking

Thanks. Especially for people's thoughts on eggs/production of hens.

It was not my intention to be here this long I siimply thought I would input where I could to help you all out.I have tried to answer offer an opinion on your post I hope I make some sense and help in some way. .

The search issue for the clb is the same for US and UK there simply isn't the info to find, generally most of what I turn up is in books.

 

[graciesmum]

  Whoops -- I will have to turn in my credentials as a Cream Legbar Person -- or Clarify and say instead - I love the 2nd girl's picture.  Thanks for catching me in a slip up.  ;O_)

You have me worried now, they are both girls aren't they?

 

[ChicKat]

You have me worried now, they are both girls aren't they?

Hi graciesmum -- The first chick is kind of in silhouette -- and my eyes must be fading - and my monitor is small. You have the birds in hand... so unless you see barring develop or hear a crow -- It's a girl -- sorry I worried you.