The Legbar Thread!

[ChicKat]

It's a momentous occasion when Steen & nicalandia agree.

I'm rather with 1Muttsfan here. Posted these two questions with the silver-looking - "genetically correct " CL picture elsewhere.

1. Why would anyone go through Cream to get silver-looking bird? If there is no visual difference between a silver-crested Legbar and a Cream Legbar - then what is the value-added of Cream?
2. If Cream is identical to silver, how did Punnett ever find a Cream in the first place?


Interestingly - there is a bird walking the soil of the USA, and has been for a few years now. It doesn't look silver, and yet, it cannot be a gold Legbar because it has a crest and lays eggs from the blue-genetics.

Does this mean that we have a new breed in the USA? If the super-pale version is correct for a Cream Legbar - then do we have a new bird??
Shall we name it the American Legbar?, Punnett Legbar (since it seems to combine 2 out of 3 of the breeds) if indeed it is not a Cream Legbar, How about the Colorful Legbar, or maybe the Independence-Day Legbar since it is different from the UK ancestor.

If Gold Legbar was an ancestor of Cream Legbar, then Cream Legbar would be an ancestor of this new variety. Hmmmm Since it has been breeding true for coloration in the USA for over a year, it is a year ahead of the silver one called Cream Legbar. Perhaps it would get APA acceptance first.

This would resolve a lot of problems

• no need to do double mating to get the correct bird of each sex. The sexual dimorphism is already correct.
• larger genetic pool since the silver-looking birds have a smaller gene pool
• People who have been rejected because their birds are too golden can be brought into the fold
• No confusion with other light barred breeds but rather instant recognition for the new variety of Legbar
• People who prefer more color would be pleased

It could be that just as silver legbars were originally discarded, this colorful legbar would be not discarded and vanquished.

The SOP would be nearly identical to the current draft of CL sop.. It would read that no chestnut is a DQ, and some chestnut is required, some gold allowed.

 

[KPenley]

It's a momentous occasion when Steen & nicalandia agree.

1. Why would anyone go through Cream to get silver-looking bird? If there is no visual difference between a silver-crested Legbar and a Cream Legbar - then what is the value-added of Cream?
2. If Cream is identical to silver, how did Punnett ever find a Cream in the first place?

I'll leave the rest up to others who's preferences more closely mirror your own, but I can help with these two questions

1. The value of the Cream was the blue eggs and crest, on top of the already valued autosexing of chicks. Cream was also a color that was newly discovered in the UK at the time. There is a visual difference...the crest. And of course the eggs. And I think the hens have always been more cream than silver, while the roos were more silver (just my thoughts though).
2. Punnet was lucky enough to acquire some South American birds from the Elliott family (remember that lengthy bio on Clarence Elliott attached to the history...lol). One of them must have been cream, because he first saw it in their descendants. Pease's cream came from an inbred Leghorn from Reaseheath. When the birds from both professors were bred together, all of the offspring were cream, so they determined that they had discovered the same gene in these two differing species. Pease added the Reaseheath leghorn to his gold legbars, and when added to Punnett's Elliott birds (most likely Araucanas), their descendants became the Cream Legbar.

 

[Laingcroft]

Here are two cockerels with different barring on the neck, chest and back. One is a legbar, the other a Basque. The roosters of these two breeds are strikingly similar, while the hens are completely different - a great example of how genes may cause very different genotypes to appear similar phenotypically

In this pic, the basque is on the top, the legbar on the bottom - you can see the dark barring over the neck.



Here the basque is on the right, the legbar on the left, for the barring on the chest



And here, basque again on the right, legbar on the left, showing the barring over the saddle feathers.



You can clearly see this cockerel's pronounced wry tail - the reason he is in the cull pen, as otherwise I like him quite a lot.

The Basque in this picture is NOT the correct color for a rooster/cockbird. Correct Basques do not have a black breast like the Legbar. The correct color for a Basque is based on a solid red like the New Hampshire, Gorria, in Spain. It is believed that the Basque genetics also contain the cream gene (gold inhibitor ig, which adds a double dilution with the barring gene b to make the chickens appear almost blonde.

This is the correct color for a Basque cock bird, although we are aiming for a bit deeper in red.



Our first Legbar boy from Greenfire's "red band" line passed wry tail to his offspring so we are starting over with a new cockerel that does not appear to have autosomal red AR at this point.

 

[TwoBit]

I have a question about this possible melonizer gene. It is supposed to cause the grey barring in the saddle and secondary feathers so that its not just colored barring but the grey as well correct?

Some people have stated that as their birds have become more cream they lay a more blue egg so I'm assuming that the cream gene may have something to do with modifing that? Or just a coincidence?

There is a pic in this thread or one of them( LOL) of madamwolf's green egg laying hen it appears IMO that it has the dark lacing and possibly lacks the cream gene...IF its not an oops...then it would back up that theory?! IDK just a thought

I believe there are a few others that have posted pics of their hens that were 'off color' or possibly melonotic did these hens lay a greener egg as well? And is there a way to test breed or know for sure that a hen has this gene and is not just another...'sport'?

I'm asking because while my roosters are still too dark they also lack any gray or black barring on their saddle and wing bow..just colored barring ...so I'm assuming that once I get two copies of cream in the future generations that they would just be cream there no grey barring? And would that be a DQ or a fault?
Sorry so many questions I'm not very well versed in genetics so keep it simple pretty please ;D

 

[TwoBit]

Hmmm I think that maybe this discussion was on one of the other threads...there are so many I can't remember now which I read what on lol
ETA...never mind I think its been mentioned on here anyway.

 

[blackbirds13]

This is the correct color for a Basque cock bird, although we are aiming for a bit deeper in red.

Beautiful Bird.

 

[1muttsfan]

Of course the pictures that I posted were intended as an example to show the difference between dark barring in the hackles and saddle and the lack of it - not the quality of the birds involved.

 

[Laingcroft]

Of course the pictures that I posted were intended as an example to show the difference between dark barring in the hackles and saddle and the lack of it - not the quality of the birds involved.

Misunderstood this line "The roosters of these two breeds are strikingly similar, while the hens are completely different" as a comparison between breeds not just comparing individuals that happened to look similar from two different breeds. Correct specimens of Legbars and Basques do not look much alike at all. I raise both breeds.

 

[HaplessRunner]

The Basque in this picture is NOT the correct color for a rooster/cockbird. Correct Basques do not have a black breast like the Legbar. The correct color for a Basque is based on a solid red like the New Hampshire, Gorria, in Spain. It is believed that the Basque genetics also contain the cream gene (gold inhibitor ig, which adds a double dilution with the barring gene b to make the chickens appear almost blonde.

This is the correct color for a Basque cock bird, although we are aiming for a bit deeper in red.



Our first Legbar boy from Greenfire's "red band" line passed wry tail to his offspring so we are starting over with a new cockerel that does not appear to have autosomal red AR at this point.

Not to take over the legbar thread with Basque hen discussion, but there are 5 varieties of basque hen with one most likely extinct. The cockeral in the pictures above is the marraduna basque variety not the gorria. The punta pinta variety can also be found in the USA now as well. Like Laingcroft, I too raise both breeds.

 

[HaplessRunner]

It's a momentous occasion when Steen & nicalandia agree.

I'm rather with 1Muttsfan here. Posted these two questions with the silver-looking - "genetically correct " CL picture elsewhere.

1. Why would anyone go through Cream to get silver-looking bird? If there is no visual difference between a silver-crested Legbar and a Cream Legbar - then what is the value-added of Cream?
2. If Cream is identical to silver, how did Punnett ever find a Cream in the first place?


Interestingly - there is a bird walking the soil of the USA, and has been for a few years now. It doesn't look silver, and yet, it cannot be a gold Legbar because it has a crest and lays eggs from the blue-genetics.

Does this mean that we have a new breed in the USA? If the super-pale version is correct for a Cream Legbar - then do we have a new bird??
Shall we name it the American Legbar?, Punnett Legbar (since it seems to combine 2 out of 3 of the breeds) if indeed it is not a Cream Legbar, How about the Colorful Legbar, or maybe the Independence-Day Legbar since it is different from the UK ancestor.

If Gold Legbar was an ancestor of Cream Legbar, then Cream Legbar would be an ancestor of this new variety. Hmmmm Since it has been breeding true for coloration in the USA for over a year, it is a year ahead of the silver one called Cream Legbar. Perhaps it would get APA acceptance first.

This would resolve a lot of problems

• no need to do double mating to get the correct bird of each sex. The sexual dimorphism is already correct.
• larger genetic pool since the silver-looking birds have a smaller gene pool
• People who have been rejected because their birds are too golden can be brought into the fold
• No confusion with other light barred breeds but rather instant recognition for the new variety of Legbar
• People who prefer more color would be pleased

It could be that just as silver legbars were originally discarded, this colorful legbar would be not discarded and vanquished.

The SOP would be nearly identical to the current draft of CL sop.. It would read that no chestnut is a DQ, and some chestnut is required, some gold allowed.

ChicKat, I am with you on this subject.

At the risk of bringing fire and brimstone down upon myself, I would make this suggestion. Rather than go through all toil and effort (however self satisfying) to recreate the UK standard, I think the Cream Legbar Club would be better served by accepting the type and colors of cream legbars that currently populate the US. The standard should readily accommodate the range of views on coloration which seems to be the ultimate sticking point.

Since I, too, am a member of the Cream Legbar Club and standard will require voting by the membership, I will place a marker now. I will never vote for a standard that endorses grayed out roosters. A hint of chestnut or wording to the effect that "some chestnut is acceptable" would, likewise, not be acceptable to me.

Based upon all the discussions in the Cream Legbar, The Legbar, and Cream Legbars: Standard of Perfection threads, I do not believe that I am alone in this position. All the discussion of original intent, what is too much color, detailed genetics, etc., can be interesting for a while. But as noted in the previous threads, this has gone on intensely for weeks and for months before that. So much so, I feel that I could walk away from these threads, come back in few weeks and not have missed anything. Too much time and energy and been invested by learned, empirical, and other opinion makers.

Folks, it really is time to make a decision and move on.