The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[Leahs Mom]

Seems like separating out the roos/cockerels into a "boy area" might be a good idea for a rest and recovery. However, since I only have one, there'd be no company. In the future, I think I might have a rooster's quarters if I had several and limit access like you would when breeding.

I'm just "thinking out loud" here and may not do that at all !

 

[chooks4life]

Regarding the stinky wet deep litter compost, have you tried agricultural lime powder? I'm fairly sure it's hydrated lime. If it's failed and looks too deep to easily 'sow' back to health I'd remove it and start again, but it may pay to use lime and mix it through. It's also good to get some natural leaf mulch from a forest area if you have one on your property or nearby you know isn't poisoned or ecologically delicate or protected. I used shavings a couple of times but overall have stuck to nesting hay. I clean the old hay out of the nests straight onto the floor and scatter it, and just leave it to become part of the litter. Wood ash and charcoal are also useful as treatments for an overabundance of unhealthy bacteria. Of course don't use any ash known to be volatile or from treated wood, I'd guess you know that but some people don't, so just in case...
Quote: Depending on what those issues are that your vet is managing, your cat may be able to be healed. I wish you all the best with that. Cats can be such difficult patients, but they're renowned for making miraculous recoveries. My old cat's been paralyzed 5 times now, had an enormous head infection that made her temporarily mad and her head twice the size it should have been; also she's dislocated and smashed a leg and had cat flu minus vet treatment and a host of other problems. Her quality of life is good now despite all that. I wish you the same with yours. Minus the frequent mishaps of course!

With age, my once-impossible cat has become a lot wiser about letting me apply herbs to her feed and fur for whatever. She would literally do wall and ceiling runs through the house if I tried to make her swallow anything to worm her! By the time she stopped running to beg me to open a door for her to escape, there would be enormous beards of discarded foamed saliva all over the house, and one on her face. I stopped using man made products on her as a year-old cat, and amazingly enough she has lived over a decade since without being wormed once; sometimes she eats tabasco-sauced food or garlic or curry-spiced meats cooked for people, but not often enough or in large enough quantity to be counted as being assured worm removal or protection. I'd been told they must be wormed all the time, but it seems to be another common piece of misinformation.

I recently used cold-pressed neem seed oil to cure her of an almost-fatal case of blue pigeon lice. (People thought it was late stage aggressive cancer). They'd made her whole face a bleeding scab, and were progressing to other parts of her body. It looked horrific and happened in just a few months while I was living elsewhere and she was staying at my mother's. I don't know if she got the actual infection from a pigeon in the first place but she's sworn off birds now; she used to be a bird-maimer but once caged and riddled with the blue lice, pigeons got into her cage and she would not be near them, didn't even want to look at them. I had to use Levy's book to even identify what was wrong with her. I was sure it wasn't cancer. I've let her endure a lot of sub-par health due to not knowing how to treat her or being too slow to see what is wrong, and it's not easy with her being so difficult. I'm actually pretty new to using natural treatments for cats and dogs, my first dog and this now-old cat were raised to adulthood with man made wormers and flea powders. No good.

Initially I was skeptical of many of the things I read in Levy's books. (Too simple to be true, surely!) But I tried remedies she recommended and I now vouch for them. I do think however we are moving beyond her general sphere of knowledge and more layers need to be added, if you know what I mean, due to our modern medicines, genetics, the environmental situation, the pharmaceutical influences, and all the changes that have occurred to the genetics of plants, animals, diseases and parasites alike since her time.

For example it will be of limited use (or even give unpredictable results) to treat animals with genetically modified plants or ornamentally bred herbs. I know the popular and naive argument for genetic modification is that it's 'no different from what farmers have been doing for thousands of years as they selected their breeding stock' but that one's easily shot down because they could only breed what naturally bred together, not mix genes from completely divergent organisms like birds with swine and herbs with poisonous insect genes. No farmer managed to breed a goat into producing human milk proteins, nor did any farmer manage to breed a spring onion into growing an ear of corn. Today we have all these 'wonders'. Combining different organisms is not remotely anything our bodies are able to adapt to. It's literally russian roulette being played beneath the surface. New studies show GM soy proteins remain in your stomach indefinitely, having joined with your cells and replicating 'alien' DNA therein.

Each plant contains the correct balance of properties and compounds that allow the plant to be correctly and beneficially processed; now that's being altered with no restraint except what fails to be commercially viable as the guiding principle. These genetically modified plants are altered beyond trustworthy performance as nutritional and medicinal items by being combined with other plant's and animal's DNA. If it naturally combines, it's a 'coherent' organism and our organism can process it, but the artificially combined organisms we eat and feed to our animals, like most soy or other plants that are spliced with toxic plants and bacteria, are not 'coherent' nor are they able to be safely synthesized by our systems, hence some of the failures of some attempted modern herbal remedies. With the modern state of affairs very much in mind, I attempt to be careful about my plant sources, and if one herb doesn't work to cure what it always has before throughout history, I don't give up on that cure, I source a different strain of the same herb. So far that's been a very successful approach. If anyone tries a herbal cure and gets no result, I urge them to source the same herb from a different place and try again. Cats especially are good at convincing people their treatments are killing them, but they too respond well to natural care.

All the best wishes for the future of your cat and everyone else who has one too. And all the other animals.

 

[BlueMouse]

as per the incubation survey:


I just finished my first experience. I had a single chick hatch out of almost two dozen eggs. It was extremely discouraging. I'm much more encouraged after eggtopsying because I realized that a) 5 out of 8 of my shipped eggs never even started. of my own eggs, two never started. Not sure what's up with that, since ever egg I break seems to be fertile. and b) the ones that had died had died right about the time we had a huge power outtage. So, it wasn't me or the incubator, it was the power outtage.

- It was pretty easy. I just had to remember to keep a strict eye on the LED light that says that the program for my incubator is still running (My 2 year old son managed to turn it off twice. I caught it quickly both times though) and that the water in the humidity tray runs out in less than 8 hours, so I need to check it halfway through the day to keep the humidity stable.

- I'm already doing it again! I have 10 eggs in there right now on a second trial run.

- As far as tips, I'm just a newbie, but this is what I've learned so far: be sure to eggtopsy, even if you're squeamish. It can tell you SO much about what's going on. A reliable broody hen who is a good mama is more precious than rubies. Knowing that your temperature and humidity readings are accurate will take a HUGE load off your mind. My DH invested in atmospheric sensors that they use in weather stations for the incubator (can you tell he's a geek?) it was so wonderful to know that they were accurate to something like a tenth of a degree celcius.

On the subject of broodies. I'm loving this whole broody business. I coudl watch her and the baby and Mr. Bennet all day long. They're so funny. He spends as much time fussing over the baby as she does almost. Yesterday I was working in the garden, and saw the most hilarious thing. Mr. Bennet would be over on the other side of the yard and he'd make his "I have food" call. Before any of the other girls could so much as start moving my broody mama had SHOT across the yard like she had rocket assist (leaving the baby cheeping somewhat confusedly) grabbed the food, and shot back across the yard to tenderly present it to her offspring (with much encouraging chortling.) That baby always has the fullest crop. This is so much better than brooding chicks in the house. I love seeing the mama teaching the baby how to forage. I know that this baby is going to grow up knowing how to forage for it's food, not relying on handouts from me.

Also about chicks: Do you more experienced folks think that my partially feathered 3 week old Cornish X can go out into the tractor? they're off the heat lamp in the house, It gets as cold as 50 outside during the night. They've been going outside during the day to run around and peck at the grass, but I've been bringing them back in at night.

 

[Mumsy]

Cull the hen or the roo?

The hen. I assume the roo is more valuable if he is chosen for breeding or flock protection. When I chose hens for breeding, good feathering and cushion over the back are high on the list. If the hen is a valuable layer and not needed for breeding, they go in a layer pen. No Cock bird. For free ranging entire flocks, this isn't always an option.

 

[loanwizard]

I have never culled due to a hen being a favorite and believe me, I have and have had some bald hens. Nor do I aim to start. I suppose I am a gentleman but it seems so wrong that because she is cute and a favorite, I should kill her. Sounds like Victorian thinking to me.
I have never lost a bald hen to the cold, nor to an infection. They just go about their business.... um... bald.

Not saying one is right, and one is wrong, just my way of thinking.

 

[Mumsy]

I have never culled due to a hen being a favorite and believe me, I have and have had some bald hens. Nor do I aim to start. I suppose I am a gentleman but it seems so wrong that because she is cute and a favorite, I should kill her. Sounds like Victorian thinking to me.
I have never lost a bald hen to the cold, nor to an infection. They just go about their business.... um... bald.

Not saying one is right, and one is wrong, just my way of thinking.

It really comes down to what you are breeding for. Everyone raises chickens for such different reasons these days. What would be the right thing to do for one would be unthinkable to another. That's pretty much the way of life in all things. I respect decisions people make but give advice from experience.

If I continually raised pullets from a hen that was thin feathered over the saddle and spent her day squatting rather than eating, I would have a weaker laying flock over all in a few years. Easier for me to cull my breeding hens into a strong, healthy, good feathered flock from the get go than try to fix it years down the road once that weak trait was firmly established in my flocks dna.

If all I was raising was meat birds or just layers, this wouldn't matter. Call me Victorian. (that made me smile)

 

[chooks4life]

@BlueMouse: great rooster you've got there by the sounds of it, I'd definitely hang onto him if I were you. It can be so hard to find a decent rooster who wants to be a good father. I totally agree about the natural brooding and rearing and the value placed on a good mother hen; they're worth every good thing that goes into them. There's no joy in artificial incubators compared to natural brooding and mothering, not in my opinion anyway. Not to say those who use that method are doing wrong, just that it seems a lot of work for less sprightly results. Chicks get a huge amount of benefits from being hen-reared that we can't yet replicate.

@loanwizard: very much agree with you too. Strange to cull a hen for the rooster's roughness or her feather's weakness, both of which are treatable and neither of which are her fault. You could lose some seriously good genetics culling hens for being favourites, as I've noticed chooks are often reliable at picking their best genetic match. If she's on a layer-pellet free diet including raw garlic, not only will she not get any serious infection from any scratches from him, but she won't grow such weak feathers. In my experience anyway.

Re: 'overbred favourites' --- this is just my opinion on the topic, covering a few different possible factors:

First theory: the so-called 'favourite' is possibly not his favourite, she's possibly just the one who grows the weakest feathers due to genes, illness, or diet. Or all three.

Second theory (and supporting experience anecdotes): the feed is most likely to blame, even more so than genetics. My reasons for this opinion are: I've kept hundreds of chooks ranging together with a ratio that is often 50:50 or skewed in either gender's favour; (I'm only counting sexually mature birds for this); anyway, none of the hens were ever 'over-mated' despite the huge amount of very active roosters and cockerels. The layer breeds both purebred and hybrid that I bought in from outside breeders, who were raised on medicated feeds/crumble/chick starter and later on layer pellets, and usually vaccinated, would moult terribly and look 'over mated' until they'd been a year off pellets. No matter their age, once off pellets for a year, none of them were ever 'over mated' again, nor did they moult with bare patches again. Their rough feathers became shiny, very strong, and very smooth. A lot of these were two or more years old, older layers who'd always moulted terribly. Most of them arrived in that de-feathered condition from one-rooster homes where they looked 'over mated', and went on to have full coats of plumage no matter the season in a place where they truly were over mated. Layer pellets, unless organic, are not worth the money, in my opinion. I'm trialling the organic ones right now and don't know yet if they'll be worth it either.

Third theory: Last but not least, as someone else already suggested, hens on layer pellets can also be terrible feather pickers because layer pellets don't supply their full needs despite being high protein and marketed as sufficient.

And my last theory/anecdote on the topic of 'overmating' --- if it definitely is a very rough rooster, I'd cull him, because he's not worth the hens he's wasting. No pointlessly damaging animal is worth breeding in my opinion, no matter its genetics; it would need to be the last of its breed to justify that! Even over excited cockerels running all over the place trying to convince hens to mate with them and often meeting noisy and determined rejections never caused 'over mating' which would surely occur if it was in fact the cause of the lost feathers. I don't think a single rooster would cause that unless he has a serious attitude problem or the hen has seriously weak feathers.

Long story short I think it is most likely the feed that is causing it.

 

[Leahs Mom]

Mumsy, that is good thought when it comes to breeding/culling.

At some point, if I keep going the way I am, I'd separate the layers from those that I wanted to breed and proceed from there.

In the meantime, this girl with the feathers is a hatchery ee that lays the largest eggs in the whole flock. They weigh out at "jumbo" size in ounces per egg. She is definitely a good layer and even if I didn't breed her for future genetics, I'd surely keep her for egg laying.

You're right - sometimes people give advice that they try to apply to everyone...but different folks have different goals.
-LW has a good bunch of layers the run with the roosters. They lay and produce what's needed. They're like the old fashioned farm flock.
-Then there are the folks that are breeding for standard conformation and to sell offspring. A whole different set of rules and variables and list of what makes them valuable.
-Some have the old fashioned farm flock then decide to breed/cull for other things such as egg size and numbers, overall good health, feed efficiency, etc. etc. etc.
-Others just purchase new chicks from time to time and will never breed but will raise meat/eggs from those chicks. They replace them from the hatchery or breeders as needed.

You just have to figure out what your goals are and go from there.

I have hens that are a value to me in producing eggs for eating. Then I'm beginning a little flock of birds of a breed I want to breed for myself as a closed flock - and to perhaps sell fertilized eggs or chicks sometime off into the future. These 2 groups will be treated differently in what I'd find valuable

 

[Leahs Mom]

OH... And I'm not sure that this kiddo isn't just beginning a molt. I guess I'll be able to tell in the next week or so!

 

[loanwizard]

Hmmm..... some different perspectives... Who'da thunk? Some points brought up that never even occurred to me.

I, just 3 days ago, gave away 4 Brahma Roosters. They were never aggressive to me, but they would tag team my girls and invariably were the last ones in to roost at night tag teaming the other sleepier rooster's gals. Reminded me of gangs of teenagers....sorry, just evicted some teens tthat thought parties and public sex acts were cool....

That's my way, get rid of the boys, keep the girls.

I'm the pimp, those girls make me money every day....

As far as feed and nutrition, possibly, as I feed a few handfuls when they bug me.....and then they pilfer from the hogs....

One of these days, I will replace them all every year.... Or... One of these years I will get some real heritage breed birds and replenish their bloodlines annually.... Til then, they is just hybrid chickens.....