The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[aoxa]

OK... I'm going to clarify... and possibly contradict... but bear with me...
First of all... everyone needs to understand there is a HUGE difference in an lgd and a herding dog.
I have herding dogs... competitive ones... they are NOT lgds and never could be.
Now...that said... there are such things as generic farm dogs.
For many folks a farm dog is adequate as what most people really need is simply a deterrent.
You have a dog, it's doesn't hurt your livestock, it barks at unwelcome visitors - it deters.

LGD's... let's generalize... yes some breeds "in general" like to roam.
However... many people blame their roaming on the breed when in fact the owners should be blamed... the dogs as pups were not taught to respect their fencing and/or owners refuse to have them spayed or neutered. Pyrs are known to be roamers... yet this is an unfair statement.
What pyrs really are is "perimeter guardians". However... it is very difficult for a pyr to guard a perimeter if that perimeter is not well defined and a precedence set at a young age.

Training... very little training is actually required. Trust me, I LOVE to train... I'm a competition obedience trainer.
You should have to do very little training with an lgd.
Mine learn to walk politely (not heal), just don't drag me... they know their name, "sit" (which they have to do before each meal), "off" (don't jump on me), "grrr" (equivalent of NO, don't do that, stop what you are doing), and "wait". That is ALL the commands they know other than their name.
Drop its and recalls are for obedience dogs... you do NOT want an obedience dog, you want a guardian who respects you. Obeying commands is not what earns respect. Respect is earned by having proper timing. This is VERY difficult to get people to understand and it the #1 reason so many lgd's end up in rescue.
It is rarely because it is a bad dog... almost always because it is a bad owner. Harsh, but true.

So... 90% of what allows an lgd to become a "good" lgd, is an owner that understands how an lgd thinks and has the proper timing to avoid problems.
The proper timing... as in... young enough and soon enough.
The most important thing an lgd needs to be permitted to develop is a BOND with their livestock.
Not a "I won't eat them" bond, or a "see mom, I'm not playing with them" bond... but the kind of bond where they will STAY by their side no matter what!
LGD's who roam were never properly bonded to their livestock at the right age. Oh, they love them... but they weren't allow to develop that bond.
When is that bond formed? From the second they open their eyes.
My pups have been with poultry from the time they were born... it is what they know and what they are bonded with.
They also have NO IDEA where I live... where my house is. I am simply the human that shows up every once in a while and brings food.
An lgd that leaves it's livestock EVER is not properly bonded - period!!
That's a totally different problem... and people resort to obedience because they missed the window of opportunity to bond.
I can train any dog to be obedient... any dog to not kill livestock... I can even keep any dog in with the right kind of fencing...
But I cannot make him want to stay there no matter what... worse than wanting to be dry and warm, worse than chasing a car, worse than not be willing to die to protect the livestock. IF you miss that window in time obedience will get you the "appearance" of an lgd... but when push comes to shove that appearance is nothing more than a deterrent... that dog won't give it's life for his chickens when 3 cougars show up... it'll run to your back door instead.

Too many people try to bond lgd's to livestock when they are teenagers (6-12 months old)... it "can" be done... but the strong bond that exists between those who are born into that relationship will never be there.
So... part one of timing is the breeders responsibility.
Part two, is timing on the new owners part. Most humans cannot react quick enough to correct a dog in such a way that that dog has a clue what it did wrong.
Three tenths of a second... that's how quick you must be. So... if you don't catch them in the act and communicate to them that what they are doing is wrong, then all they learn is that you get mad... they have no idea why... they just learn to stay out of your way when it happens.
It's like the dog that potties in the house... they learn NOTHING if you fuss at them "after" it happens. No, that's not true... they learn they can make you angry... they just haven't a clue how they did it so they don't know how to prevent it the next time.

My 8 week old pups are currently on a 1/2 acre with poultry. In the next few weeks one of them (and I can tell you which one

) will decide to chase one of them pullets or hens. I have a pen of cockerels just waiting for that to happen. You don't need lots of land or large livestock. You need appropriate livestock for the temperament and age. You need to remember that babies NEVER go with babies... pups with chicks is a no-no. It is simply a matter of timing... pup will chase, I will correct before any damage is done, cockerels will spend the next month reinforcing my correction. Pup will NEVER chase a chicken again... because he was "told clearly" one time that that is a no-no. Being told isn't enough... they need to understand... the timing is critical.
It doesn't take weeks or months... it takes one time.
So... who has the time? NO ONE!! Easy solution... you set them up... set em up to fail when you can assure you will have the proper timing.
That's why I have pups here still... they don't leave for another month... they will be able to go right in with their poultry, goats, sheep... whatever... and will never have to be taken out. Will they be perfect? No, they are pups... they will chew, they will corner if they can... but ask yourself this... what are their corners?

My chickens sleep on the backs of maremma... it's a trust issue... that bond works both ways.
So... timing is what is lacking for most folks... they have a full time job, they work away from home, they have no choice but to leave 7 mo old pup with poultry or lock it up. NEVER lock up an lgd... you are telling them you don't want them to do their job. You are denying them the one thing you want them to bond with. There are easy solutions to the challenges you face when the pups are teenagers... IF the foundation was laid correctly by the breeder.
If not, then you, the owner, have to get an even bigger education and learn how to counteract what should have been reinforced earlier on.

OK... enough of a lecture... Just remember that if you have a farm dog you can't expect it to be an lgd....
And if you have an lgd, you can't expect it to be a farm dog.
As long as you know what breed you are dealing with and have proper expectations, raising either is a blast and is very rewarding.
OK... sun is going down so I have maremma to feed.... 8 of them right now (one pup left already - whew)

I bet you anything my Clementine was not raised how you raise your pups, which would have been the start of the issues. Otherwise I tried everything you mentioned. I could not get her to bond with them (the chickens), no matter what. she was raised only with sheep until 12 weeks when we brought her home. When we bought sheep for her at 8 months old, she was ECSTATIC. I bet it would have been much easier if we had sheep in the beginning.

Oh and I believe her previous breeders spent a lot of time with the puppies. They were really attached to humans right away.

 

[SunnySkies]

Sunny - what if you had gotten your dogs when they were over 2 yo.  Do you think they would have trainable to the chickens at that age rather than going through the puppy stage?

Unless that dog had been an LGD from the start, no. I do not think they will always seek them out to kill them, and many learn to tolerate poultry but are not bonded to them. A pet GP can and has turned into a property protection dog, guarding livestock and birds because they exist there, but most of those dogs prefer to be with people. I thought long and hard about getting an adult, but a) it was very hard to find an adult (the rescues refused to talk to me after they found out I wanted a working dog) and b) no guarantee the adult would be good with chickens. I knew getting a puppy would likely result in a few chicken deaths, but we have taken a lot of steps to minimize that for now.

Mine like people -- and I needed them to like people, because we have people on and off the property all the time -- but they definitely prefer to be outside near the animals after the excitement wears off. Unfortunately, because I cannot supervise 24/7 but do not have a way to confine 5 completely different flocks of chickens and a flock of ducks, the dogs have to be confined when I'm not around and the chickens are awake, in order to prevent situations in which the dogs can misbehave and not be corrected in a timely fashion; a kennel was what several LGD breeders suggested as an interim plan. My friend kenneled her dogs during the day and let them roam after the birds went to bed (and after her girl also showed a propensity to play with chickens to the death) but now the dogs are completely trustworthy. So I have hope for mine only 18 more months to go, lol.

I use a radio fence for my GPs. Highly, highly successfully, I might add. But I worked hard with them to teach them what to do when it beeps, before the zap, and it took one zap. I test them constantly, which is quite unfair of me, and they don't even try to escape. So if taught properly and young, I daresay the rumor about a Pyr disappearing is just that. My GSD roamed way, way more than these guys. I know a couple other LGD owners who have great success with the radio fences as well. One Kangal breeder uses only radio fences.

For folks thinking about LGDs, there is a really good book with a green cover. Highly recommend starting there. I think how you go about working with an LGD depends on your goals for your dog and your needs. If you need a dog that is capable of living out in the back 40 with sheep or goats for days at a time with no supervision, how you reach that will be different than someone like me, with just a few acres, no sheep, lots of farm visitors and a pack of kids.

ETA: LGDs only need minimal training, and in order to train them, you have to be their partner, not their boss. Mine know sit, stay (for a few seconds, lol, but long enough for me to get their food in their bowls), how to walk politely on a leash (not heeling though), leave it, mine (my command to leave whatever it is alone, whether it be a person, a thing or a bird), and their names. They will come to me when called because I always call them to me for happy things...I never call them to me for discipline. The protection part....it is ingrained. I have already seen mine drive off unwanted animals, as early as a few months old. At just 12 weeks, they reacted when a stray dog showed up here. I warned my back neighbor, who has a dog that will roam if she lets it off leash, that mine would likely put hers in its place, and they are now bigger than that Golden. Trying to train an LGD breed in general is an exercise in futility. They think for themselves!

 

[FoxThicketFarm]

Speaking of fake owls...:

hmmmm...interesting. I definitely had a different experience. Cooper's was coming by every day bf the owl, turned around in mid air after the owl. Never perched to observe the flock again. Never dove at them again.

It's my sense that the bobble has to be moved frequently to be effective. Apparently, many folks leave them in one place for awhile at a time, thus habituating the wildlife and rendering the owl useless. Also, tho, my birds are in a spot where there are many open hayfield hunting options for raptors, so that might make them easier to deter? Perhaps a place less rich in bunnies and mice would have more determined chicken hawks?

I've also heard mixed reviews of coyote urine for deterring racoons. Worked like a charm for me, tho. I had a raccoon coming by every night to harass my birds. Put vials of coyote urine every ten feet around the perimeter of the fence- raccoon never heard from again.

I was just thinking today about how keeping chickens has put me in an ongoing conversation with the ecology of the spot they are in. I am constantly trying to read the landscape from the perspective of potential predators and alter it to read: keep away. But, in the same way that husbandry techniques have to be tweaked for each flock, individual predators (even individual members of the same species) will respond differently to different deterrents or exclusions. All you can do is collect anecdotes from other people, observe your particular spot, and make your best guesses re what might work for you, tweaking as you go. Sometimes I feel very close to my local preds, dancing with them this way.

When I wrote before, I didn't realize the hawk had already gotten one of your adult birds. It sounds like he got her in the open? Maybe one strategy would be to put up a monofilament web going from the coop out to the forested area, since that open spot seems to be the dangerous place. If you have a gut feeling that an owl wont work for you, maybe a scare-hawk statue of some kind? I know people have had success with those. It's my understanding they need to move quite a bit in the breeze to be effective. Perhaps there is an auditory solution? Speakers playing recordings of barking dogs on a loop in the spots where you've seen the hawk? Never heard of anyone doing that- just a brainstorm.

Is the hawk coming back? Is he perching to observe your flock? Are the birds still in jail? (I think you said somewhere they are ranging again, but I'm reading this thread out of order, so am not sure.) Also, what kind of hawk territory are you in? Is it pretty woodsy in general where you are? Many farm fields? Lots of mowed lawns? Do you have neighbors keeping chickens? (My idiot neighbors keep talking about getting some birds, and I hope they never do bc, imo, there is no more efficient way to develop a taste for poultry in the palates of the local preds. A hawk that has become a chicken specialist would be difficult to deter.)

Thinking about you and your birds. Hawk loss is a subject close to my heart. I very clearly remember feeling so very devastated and powerless this time last year. Keep me posted on how things are going and what you are doing/ thinking about doing.

You've gotten me back in the habit of moving my owl every day.

 

[Leahs Mom]

Good! Good to move him and I know I often get lax when things are going well and a reminder now and then is good.

I have been looking at various things and I think that a combination of several would be good. I have only let them out of jail when we have been outside and that was only about 1.5 hours on Sunday . Otherwise they've been confined.

I wouldn't be so stringent on that except that I have 3 seven-week-olds w/a broody and I observed on Sunday that the larger flock (only 8 adults other than the broody now) ran over to the garden and she was pretty far away from them with the kids. Seemed like too much of an easy target, and the rooster went where the predominance of the flock went. He tries to stay in a spot between the 2 but too far away for comfort. If I had no little kiddos, I would have let them out more by now.

 

[Leahs Mom]

I noticed this year that the chickens like eating the LEAVES from the bell pepper plants. Not the peppers, just the leaves.

I've left up a bunch of the plants (may lose them tonight as we're supposed to freeze) and they always stand there eating the leaves. Tonight I uprooted one and put it in the run (jail). When I went out to check the door about 45 min. later, it was totally defoliated - only the stems left. This was a 2.5 ft. tall plant that was rather bushy.

They really seem to love those leaves!

 

[armorfirelady]

So lately Stella the BR has been hoping the compost pile wall to get in the veggie garden. She spends her day hopping between the two. Today she apparently decided to hop the fence to the yard & was wondering around the wood pile. Thank goodness the dogs were in when my Mom walked over to feed the girls

She had to fill the food container then give her a snack walk, snack, walk, etc to get her back in the veggie garden then into her area.

I plan on putting netting up tomorrow over the compost. I will see if that keeps her in but I am guessing she will just start jumping the metal fence to the veggie garden. She apparently thinks the ground cover in the veggie garden is much tastier than the grass and clover she has access to.

Anyone ever try clipping their birds feathers? Anyone have a link to it?

I think I should of named Stella.........Stinker

 

[Rnbwbrite1207]

I have to cut the feathers on my bantam EE or she jumps the fence to get away from the rooster. (He is a good boy she is just a rotten brat) I cut them with a sharp pair of scissors it was incredibly easy. I found a video on you tube by searching how to trim chickens wings. It took a little browsing because some were cooking videos. But there were a few very good ones. I hope that helps.

 

[Leahs Mom]

http://www.pocketfarm.co.uk/guide-to-wing-clipping-for-chickens/

Never done it. Supposed to clip only 1 - it throws them off balance.

My SFH used to jump the fences all the time until they got a bit older and heavier. She will likely out grow it in a couple more months.

 

[armorfirelady]

Thanks Leah's mom. I'm hopeful she will give it up. Just going to put fencing up for now. I think in chicken life she is in the terrible 2s and just seeing what she can do.

 

[Jewelwing]

I'm not using any plastic in my ff process, so I can't use a bucket with holes in the bottom to drain the liquid before I feed it every day. Thanks, LM, for showing me the awesome 2 gal glass container to make the ff in! Then I found the perfect scoop to get the solids out and into the nice stainless steel bucket I use to bring the food to the chickens. Here is a picture of my setup now (minus the carrying bucket):



Now I can just scoop out the solids and let the liquid drain through the spiral wire of the scoop. So happy!