The Old Folks Home

[bamadude]

Ok i have 7 pullets and 2 roos living together. Im on my 1st bag of layer crumbles. Pol was 1 week ago. If i go back to grower feed and oyster shells, will the roos eat the oyster shells too? Also....Not trying to start a war but what are the advantages of organic. I assume it would be very expensive (like organic veggies at grocery store). I remember seeing on cnn a report that said organic veggies and regular veggies were pretty much equal. Just asking

 

[ChickenCanoe]

The rooster may pick at the oyster shell but won't feel the need to do so and won't eat enough to matter.

In short, organic avoids GMO and chemical residues in the food. Things like herbicides, pesticides and herbicides.

 

[Dragonfly216]

I've researched feed a long time and worked in the feed industry. The primary difference in all the feeds (starter/grower/finisher/all flock/layer/breeder) are calcium and protein content.
All feed formulas are based on best research. Most feeds will give the minimum nutrients needed to maintain growth or laying ability at the least cost. More expensive feeds MAY do a better job. Organic and GMO free are much more expensive because they are just harder to come by.
Breeder feed should have slightly higher levels of vitamins/minerals and higher quality protein to give better hatch results.

IMHO, one can't save money or create a better quality feed than buying bagged feed unless they buy bulk ingredients by the ton. Then they better have enough chickens to go through that feed in a week or two or the nutrient quality will degrade.

The one thing that is good about commercial poultry production, whether it be for eggs or meat, is that their chickens/turkeys get very fresh feed. They own their own mills and it is usually fed to them within a day or two of manufacture.

As far as mixing grains, look at a feed ingredient label. There are lots of things that need to be in a chickens diet that aren't found in legumes and grains. Selenium, copper, zinc, iron, magnesium, B complex, E, D, A, Methionine, Lysine. There are supplements out there for these things but they are in quantities that supplement many tons of feed.

I've tried to come up with a plan to make my own feed and I realized the ingredients I would buy were way more expensive than buying feed. It is just the economy of scale. One attempting to do so will be buying 50 lb. bags of grains and legumes and other ingredients. The manufacturers are buying train loads. A bag of organic grain is more expensive, in most cases, than a bag of complete feed. Then one still needs to get all the supplements into the mix, buy a grinder or hammermill and a mixer.

I'm not trying to step on anyone's parade, I'm just reporting what I've discovered.

No, I appreciate the honesty. You've actually spent the time in research, not to mention worked in the field, so I definitely believe, and value, your results. Thank you! That'll save me a lot of research. I will just go the route of calling everyone!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

No, I appreciate the honesty. You've actually spent the time in research, not to mention worked in the field, so I definitely believe, and value, your results. Thank you! That'll save me a lot of research. I will just go the route of calling everyone!

You will definitely benefit from calling around.

I did the same here and a bag of organic goes for anywhere from $22 to $50 for 50 lbs. We have a place called "pets in the city" that sells at the high end. They're relying on people not knowing any better. They (and many of the other places that carry organic) get a couple bags and hold on to them till some unsuspecting sap buys a 6 month old bag of feed, thinking they are doing the best thing for their chickens.
One is better off with conventional fresh feed than an old bag of organic.
Buy the freshest feed you can find and never buy a bag of feed before you look at the manufacture date on the bag.

By the way, in my experience, TSC rotates their feed in a timely manner. After it's been at my local store a couple months they discount it heavily.

 

[ozexpat]

My birds get home mixed feeds

if you want to learn about the nutrition of just about any vegetable matter http://www.feedipedia.org/

from there I made a chart for the feeds available to me

copra rice bran soy fish meal maize
Main analysis Unit Avg Avg Avg Avg Avg
Dry matter % as fed 91.5 90.2 87.9 92.2 87.2
Crude protein % DM 22.4 12.7 51.8 70.6 9.5
Crude fibre % DM 14.2 16.3 6.7 2.3
NDF % DM 54.7 34.4 13.7 11.9
ADF % DM 28.7 19.6 8.3 3.1
Lignin % DM 6.7 6.8 0.8 0.6
Ether extract % DM 9.8 14.4 2 9.9 4.1
Ash % DM 6.8 12.4 7.1 18.4 1.4
Total sugars % DM 11.4 2.8 9.4 3.1
Gross energy MJ/kg DM 20.1 20.2 19.7 20.4 18.7
Minerals Unit Avg Avg Avg Avg Avg
Calcium g/kg DM 1.2 0.7 3.9 43.4 0.2
Phosphorus g/kg DM 5.8 13.8 6.9 27.9 2.9
Potassium g/kg DM 20.1 12.3 23.7 8.7 3.5
Sodium g/kg DM 0.6 0.2 0.1 11.3 0
Magnesium g/kg DM 3 6.5 3.1 2.3 1.2
Manganese mg/kg DM 84 138 45 16 13
Zinc mg/kg DM 73 55 54 96 23
Copper mg/kg DM 33 9 18 7 2
Iron mg/kg DM 964 346 367 21
Amino acids Unit Avg Avg Avg Avg Avg
Alanine % protein 4 5.8 4.4 6.3 7.5
Arginine % protein 10.7 7.2 7.4 6.2 4.9
Aspartic acid % protein 7.7 9.3 11.3 9.1 6.8
Cystine % protein 1.2 1.7 1.5 0.8 2.2
Glutamic acid % protein 17.8 12.7 17.7 12.6 18.1
Glycine % protein 4.1 5.2 4.2 6.4 3.9
Histidine % protein 1.9 2.4 2.6 2.4 2.9
Isoleucine % protein 3 5.3 4.6 4.2 3.6
Leucine % protein 5.9 7 7.5 7.2 11.8
Lysine % protein 2.6 4.4 6.1 7.5 3.1
Methionine % protein 1.3 1.9 1.4 2.7 2.1
Phenylalanine % protein 4.1 4.4 5 3.9 4.8
Proline % protein 3.4 4.6 4.9 4.2 8.7
Serine % protein 4.4 4 5 3.9 4.7
Threonine % protein 3 3.7 3.9 4.1 3.5
Tryptophan % protein 1.3 2.2 1.3 1 0.7
Tyrosine % protein 2.1 3.4 3.5 3.1 3.4
Valine % protein 4.7 5.4 4.8 4.9 4.9

Then I use a spreadsheet to work out best ratios to meet protein and lysene levels vursus cost of prduct

poults quail chicks Peso / 100kg protein lysene mix protein lysene g/kg Pesos
fish meal 5200 70% 7.2% 0.05 0.25 17.5% 12.6 1300
soy meal 4000 50% 6.1% 0.03 0.00 0.0% 0.0 0
rice bran 1300 14% 4.4% 0.01 0.75 10.5% 4.6 975
corn bran 1800 12% 4.5% 0.01 0.00 0.0% 0.0 0
copra meal 1350 22% 2.6% 0.01 0.00 0.0% 0.0 0
Total 1.00 28.0% 17.2 2275
Target 28 16.0

220lbs of super high protein starter is $53

Grower 6-12
fish meal 5200 70% 7.2% 0.05 0.00 0.0% 0.0 0
soy meal 4000 50% 6.1% 0.03 0.10 5.0% 3.1 400
rice bran 1300 14% 4.4% 0.01 0.85 11.9% 5.2 1105
corn bran 1800 12% 4.5% 0.01 0.00 0.0% 0.0 0
copra meal 1350 22% 2.6% 0.01 0.05 1.1% 0.3 67.5
Total 1.00 18.0% 8.6 1572.5
Target 18 8.5

Growers get 18% protein 220lbs is $36.55

Adult Chickens protein lysene g/kg
fish meal 5200 70% 7.2% 0.05 0.00 0.0% 0.0 0
soy meal 4000 50% 6.1% 0.03 0.00 0.0% 0.0 0
rice bran 1300 14% 4.4% 0.01 0.90 12.6% 5.5 1170
corn bran 1800 12% 4.5% 0.01 0.00 0.0% 0.0 0
copra meal 1350 22% 2.6% 0.01 0.10 2.2% 0.6 135
Total 1.00 14.8% 6.1 1305
Target 14 6.2

Adult birds 220lbs is $30 versus 110lbs of layer crumble is $25

My savings are significant. I save because I get product cheaper but also because I have less waste by feeding the right birds the right product

I add a high quality premix vitamin and mineral suppliment as well as probiotics and I add amprolium to chicks feed - tapering it each week from 3-6

I would think you would need to be using atleast a sack of each ingredient every 2 months if it is milled. I use 1 50kg sack of soy every 2 months, 2 sacks of fish meal, 35 sacks of rice bran and 5 sacks of copra meal. That covers poultry pigs and supplimental goat feeding

 

[Wisher1000]

I've researched feed a long time and worked in the feed industry. The primary difference in all the feeds (starter/grower/finisher/all flock/layer/breeder) are calcium and protein content.
All feed formulas are based on best research. Most feeds will give the minimum nutrients needed to maintain growth or laying ability at the least cost. More expensive feeds MAY do a better job. Organic and GMO free are much more expensive because they are just harder to come by.
Breeder feed should have slightly higher levels of vitamins/minerals and higher quality protein to give better hatch results.


I'm not trying to step on anyone's parade, I'm just reporting what I've discovered.

Oh, I agree, CC, it's just that if she wants to go organic and organic all-flock is not available, she would do well to look at what IS available in organic ans supplement it to suit the age/nutritional requirements of her birds at the various stages. I LOVE pre-processed, pre packaged, pre researched feeds, but I do not require the organic versions. That is what she is having trouble finding. I use gamebird feed, Calf Manna, and BOSS as a supplement to my layer feed for my beeder birds because it is easier to buy that and feed it as needed than to have completely different feeds for the different birds. I can change the ratios as I see improvement (or lack thereof....)

 

[bamadude]

Guess i will stick to frm feed then.

 

[Wisher1000]

Bdude, an old school breeder highly recommended frm to me last year but it is not available in my area. I wish (there I go again) that it was...

 

[scottcaddy]

Bdude, an old school breeder highly recommended frm to me last year but it is not available in my area. I wish (there I go again) that it was...

BUT, you are Wisher

Scott

 

[apteryx]

I knew I could count on you guys for an educated response, I didn't think it would be so quick! Thank you very much. That was the conclusion I was coming to as well. So now I need to do more research. The only places nearby that sell the grower or broiler organic feed are two hours away or more. Living near a big city seems to make my choices few and far between. On a positive note, the place I found nearby wasn't listed on the organic's site as a local distributor, so I'm hopeful that if I call every single feed store within an hour or so if me, that I might find one with organic broiler feed! That's ok right, if they don't have grower or flock raiser?

I was recently speaking to someone in your area that has a co-op for organic feed. I think I have their info somewhere, and I might be seeing them tomorrow. I will track down contact info and send it to you.