The Plymouth Rock Breeders thread

[colburg]

Dear Rockheads,
I'm needing some help picking our second Cock/Cockerel for this breeding season. Last year's egg laying and hatching was pretty dismal. We only had 1 WR hatch, which was a cockerel of course. This years egg laying for the WR Hens is impressive. 3 hens averaging 5 eggs every 2 days. We have 19 eggs in the bator with the first cock, and I want to set 25-30 more of his line. Then, I want to set about 50 eggs with a second cock, but which one? I'm not sure. I attempted to put my own analysis with each one.

All of the hens and cocks are 21 months, and the cockerel is 11 months. BTW, they're all farm chickens, so they're dirty and the cocks managed to get some frostbite on their combs.

First is C4. I like his front view, except his legs are a bit close together.

From the side, the tail angle seems a bit low and the back is angled forward, opposite of the rainy day back. No sprigs on comb. Wing carriage is ok, I think. Maybe a bit fluffy on his legs. His breast and butt have the gravy bowl shape.


Next is C3. In this pic, the angle of his back matches the angle of his tail and looks odd. Wing carriage is ok, I think. Tail is good angle. Has a mostly gravy bowl shape on the bottom.


Here he actually has a back, but it's sloped forward worse than the previous cock, and now the tail angle looks high. No sprigs on comb. Less fluff than the previous cock.


Then, for fun, the cockerel. He just doesn't have the build of the other 2. I don't know if it's him, or his age. No gravy bowl looks at all. Tail angle is ok in the top pic, but his back is rounded. Looks fluffy. His head also looks small.

Here, his tail is way too high, but the gravy bowl(ish) shape can be seen. Wing carriage looks ok in both pics. Looks pretty crowheaded too. On the plus side, this is one randy fella. Whichever yard or pen he's in, I can guarantee there isn't an un-mated hen/pullet.





I've had more trouble choosing until I got these pics and starting writing details on paper, but now my thoughts are to use C4(the first one). He looks from both angles and doesn't ever appear to have any tail or back issues, except being slightly forward. If there is extra fluff on the shanks, I think it can be overcome more easily than the other issues with C3.

I realize it's tough to judge with only pictures, but I'll take what I can get.
Thoughts???
Thank you,
colburg

 

[Fred's Hens]

C-3 is far and away the better male, as shown. Photos are dubious and no real way to choose a breeder, of course, but C-3 should either be your primary male or you should box him up and send him to me and I'll put him to work?

The neck-back-tail on a Rock is to be a "swoop". It is not supposed to be a flat back, flat level, or flat upward, or flag backward. A clean, continuous swoop. Not many males have the proper backline and when you get one with it, breed him.

The trouble with 90% of the Rocks shown anywhere, here on BYC or elsewhere, is that the bottom of the breast is not rounded. The breast is often flat or chopped off on the bottom. Both are horrid looks and need to be avoided.

Again, just from what we can see? C-3 is your winner.

Oh and yes. Fluffy thighs is an ugly trait on a Rock, especially a male. You were right to notice that.

 

[colburg]

C-3 is far and away the better male, as shown. Photos are dubious and no real way to choose a breeder, of course, but C-3 should either be your primary male or you should box him up and send him to me and I'll put him to work?

The neck-back-tail on a Rock is to be a "swoop". It is not supposed to be a flat back, flat level, or flat upward, or flag backward. A clean, continuous swoop. Not many males have the proper backline and when you get one with it, breed him.

The trouble with 90% of the Rocks shown anywhere, here on BYC or elsewhere, is that the bottom of the breast is not rounded. The breast is often flat or chopped off on the bottom. Both are horrid looks and need to be avoided.

Again, just from what we can see? C-3 is your winner.

Oh and yes. Fluffy thighs is an ugly trait on a Rock, especially a male. You were right to notice that.

Thanks Fred. Time to pull the SOP out huh? I don't know why, but it's stuck in my brain that Rocks should have flat back, then a definite tail angle.

Fast forward 15 minutes. I looked at the old Heritage thread, the Heritage LF II thread, and CSU and I'm completely wrong on the PR back.

Fred, would you comment on the wing carriage of C3? Now that I'm looking at these other pictures, his wings look a bit low.

Does anyone have the Plymouth Rock black and white silhouette's handy? I had them bookmarked, but they were in Bob's Heritage LF thread, and now it's locked and those posts got moved and I've lost them.

Thanks,
colburg

 

[SilverRockFarm]

Thanks Fred.  Time to pull the SOP out huh?  I don't know why, but it's stuck in my brain that Rocks should have  flat back, then a definite tail angle. 

Fast forward 15 minutes.  I looked at the old Heritage thread, the Heritage LF II thread, and CSU and I'm completely wrong on the PR back. 

Fred, would you comment on the wing carriage of C3?  Now that I'm looking at these other pictures, his wings look a bit low.

Does anyone have the Plymouth Rock black and white silhouette's handy?  I had them bookmarked, but they were in Bob's Heritage LF thread, and now it's locked and those posts got moved and I've lost them.

Thanks,
colburg

"Out of the APA Standard"

PLYMOUTH ROCKS

SHAPE -- MALE

BACK : Rather long, broad its entire length, flat at shoulders; nearly horizontal from neck to saddle, then showing a slight concave sweep to tail.
Saddle Feathers -- moderately long, abundant, filling in well at juncture of tail.




SHAPE -- FEMALE

BACK : Rather long, broad its entire length, flat at shoulders; extending with a slightly concave incline to tail; feathers, moderately broad.

 

[Fred's Hens]

The problem with "words" is that every breeders interprets them a bit differently. That's both the magic of the Standard and the difficulty with it, of course. Then? There is what judges have been putting up as champions for the last 20 years in Rocks which has gotten everyone all intoxicated with the "Verizon" back line you see. It being popular doesn't make it right. It being what judges put up as champion doesn't make it right. It is a fad that the Standard doesn't support.

Your bird here is actually a very good back line.



Not bad at all. But this bird wouldn't likely win any shows as there's not enough "flash" to satisfy most judges. I actually like this bird, but his front end does not protrude enough. The breast is simply too minimal. I also cannot define his thighs.

Again, we're doing a dangerous thing here. We're judging off a few, select poses. That's nutzo. We're not handling these birds and no bird should ever be judged without handling.

Wing carriage. The standard calls for a horizontal or level wing carriage, held moderately tight. Here's the problem with photos again. In that one photo, the C-3 is holding his wing perfectly level and correctly. In the other photo of him, he's carrying it far too loosely and it isn't level. See the issues with judging off photos??? Ugh!!!

In one photo, he's got his tail all up high and over done. In the other photo, the tail looks OK, if still a bit too high.

Judging birds off photos is really quite impossible. That's why we have real, live, feel-the-bird shows. Some believe the future is online "virtual" shows. I just roll my eyes. I neither enter such foolishness nor participate in them.

Yeah, I'm old, I'm sick and tired of winter, and I feel rather the curmudgeon that I am today.

Please forgive.

 

[weavers rocks]

 

[Fred's Hens]

OK, let us stay on judging young males (or older males, for that matter) a bit longer. Most of us have made our pairings already for 2015, but in case someone is just now putting their young K's to their final paces, we go over this stuff again.

The Rock should show some back. The modern show lines often show almost zero back. The Verizon "V" starts almost at the base of the neck and rises and rises, finishing in a gawdy tail. That is, unfortunately what wins. But as Silver Rock quoted from the Standard, the Rock should show some flat back and not just start heading upward from the base of the neck.

How much flat back? Some. It's not defined in centimeters in the Standard, nor in percentages. Just states there should be some. I like to see quite a bit and that's what I breed toward. Quite a bit of flat back after the neck base.

Now, HERE"S THE TRICKY PART. The tail shouldn't just jump off, spring forth from that long flat back. Those "quick start" tails is why people breed the Verizon look with almost flat back showing.

The tail that just springs forth from the flat back is really common in our Barred Rocks. It is NOT a handsome look. Remember the Standard uses the word "swoop" and I love the swoop word. It suggests that something nice and smooth and undetectable should happen. That longish flat back line should swoop up into the tail without that abrupt beginning.

Boys and Girls. This isn't an easy thing to accomplish. Here's a K we bred out of our line. I'm sure Stephanie wouldn't mind me using his photo.



His tail does not swoop out of his back nearly as much as spring forth. We gotta keep working on this. Over all? This is a very, very good, super young K and he's not done yet. He's pretty darn good in the front (which will fill out more in the next two months) and his thighs have pretty fair definition. He's not done. But, I would like to see the tail be better integrated.

 

[colburg]

Not bad at all. But this bird wouldn't likely win any shows as there's not enough "flash" to satisfy most judges. I actually like this bird, but his front end does not protrude enough. The breast is simply too minimal. I also cannot define his thighs.

Again, we're doing a dangerous thing here. We're judging off a few, select poses. That's nutzo. We're not handling these birds and no bird should ever be judged without handling.

Wing carriage. The standard calls for a horizontal or level wing carriage, held moderately tight. Here's the problem with photos again. In that one photo, the C-3 is holding his wing perfectly level and correctly. In the other photo of him, he's carrying it far too loosely and it isn't level. See the issues with judging off photos??? Ugh!!!

In one photo, he's got his tail all up high and over done. In the other photo, the tail looks OK, if still a bit too high.

Judging birds off photos is really quite impossible. That's why we have real, live, feel-the-bird shows. Some believe the future is online "virtual" shows. I just roll my eyes. I neither enter such foolishness nor participate in them.

Yeah, I'm old, I'm sick and tired of winter, and I feel rather the curmudgeon that I am today.

Please forgive.

Well, come on down to NM. Next week we'll be in the 70's. I'll provide chickens for feeling, handling, and judging plus food and beer, you provide mentoring. Now we just need someone to pay travel.

We can make this an annual event when you're tired of winter, just come on down and we'll feel up some chickens.

 

[weavers rocks]

this is a cockerel I raised in 2014 rhough sure I had raised a nice cockerel and he was in some aspects but I was hoping his top line would stay the way it was headed in this pic . Bjt two months after this pic he looks d like he dint have any bak at all . Can't judge em to early it'll take a year minimum in my opinion and another six months would hurt I don't reckon just my opinion though

 

[colburg]

this is a cockerel I raised in 2014 rhough sure I had raised a nice cockerel and he was in some aspects but I was hoping his top line would stay the way it was headed in this pic . Bjt two months after this pic he looks d like he dint have any bak at all . Can't judge em to early it'll take a year minimum in my opinion and another six months would hurt I don't reckon just my opinion though

Do you have a recent pic for us to compare?