The road less traveled...back to good health! They have lice, mites, scale mites, worms, anemia, gl

[Beekissed]

I complete understand why/where cold, simple logic fails, when it comes to those you feel responsible for. Went through similar experience when breeding/training dogs ... despite pullin' $1200 each? I've not produced a single dog in decades now.

Check the links below; you'll find 'em very useful. And, I do wish you the best ...

Thanks, but....somehow, I don't think I will find those links a bit useful....

 

[breezy]

I have 9 backyard birds ranging in age from 7 months to 5 years. I have 3 americana mixes 2 silkies 1 jersey giant 1 buff orp 2 australorps. The birds sleep in a coop overnight but are allowed to freerange in the yard the rest of the time. They are locked in the coop overnight only. The pen that contains the coop is covered with a metal roof and tarped on the north and west sides. It is a 10 x10 dog kennel.There is also a small dog house in the pen that has a single nest box in it. The birds lay in the coop and the dog house. The coop is too small to house the birds indoor and so they are never locked up in it even in bad weather but they have access to a wind free,dry pen at all times.The bottom of the coop is covered in wood shavings and the nest boxes are filled with straw. I scoop the overnight poop of the shavings daily and change out the nest box straw monthly. The inside of the coop and perches are washed down spring and again in the fall before winter really sets in. I use a bleach and soap mix to do that ans let air dry in the sun completely before putting the birds back.

The area they freerange in is divided. One side of the yard is wood mulch with no grass at all ( I have a dog who has a contact allery to grass) The other side is grass which is never sprayed with fertilizer or pesticide or herbicide.

They eat Purina layer crumbles,nutrena scratch wild bird seed with BOSS and leftovers and scraps from the kitchen. They get some kind of a mash type breakfast everyday. For example today they got layer crumbles soaked in hot water with left over chicken noodle casserole mixed in. Yesterday it was baked pumpkin with cottage cheese and red pepper flakes with hot wet layer mash I add crushed egg shell 3 to 4 times a week to their feed as well as a kelp ,nutritional yeast, garlic supplement 2x a week.They also have constant access to oyster shell. I feed minced raw game meat 2 or 3 times during molt which typically occurs in the fall(right now) and again in spring . The water dish is changed daily and has ACV added daily as well

The problems I am having are a constant battle with lice,thin shelled eggs from the jersey and also one of the mutts, poor feathering on all but the australorps,constant head shaking like they have ear mites and the jersey has had a bald patch on her chest since this past spring. I also have 5 out of 9 birds with bumble foot altho none of them are evidencing pain or limping. I havent seen any worms in the poops. I dont count on the silkies for eggs and the buff orp has never been a layer so that leaves me 6 active layers and I get anywhere from 3 to 6 eggs a day. I average 4 eggs a day from 6 birds so I feel like egg production is right where it should be but the birds arent in optimal health and Id like to change that.

I have been dusting the birds weekly now for over a month. I dust with DE one week and then with permethrin the next week. This summer I cut off the feathers with egg clusters around the vents and dusted birds in an effort to short circut the lices breeding cycle but no luck. I have washed dusted and sprayed the coop and perches and nest boxes as well. The nest boxes have DE in them . I have not attempted to treat the bumblefoot as of yet.

I dont know where to go from here. I think Im doing what I should be but Im clearly failing somewhere since I cant seem to contain the lice nor put my girls back into good feather and I have bumblefoot in half of them.

 

[7L Farm]

Your dad was a wise man! That was important advice to have and I think farmers have gotten so far away from that concept that they no longer know how to find their way back. They get caught in a web of greed and a herd mentality of thinking that the US gov't agencies have the 411 on the "best" way to raise livestock. It's never, ever a good idea to raise too many livestock, fast and in a small area, just to make a buck.

Essentially, many of the people getting into chickens fall under that same spell. They crowd chickens into a small space or in poorly ventilated doll houses, in their wanting to have every pretty or unusual breed, laughingly call it "chicken math", contaminate their run soils with all the excess manure, and then rely on the recommended by the vet or USDA medicine to remedy the problems that ensue. It's a horrible and careless way to get into animal husbandry and the many "HELP" type threads tell the story. I can't even read those things without cringing or shaking my head and moving along.

Yes, my father was a very wise man. When he spoke I definately listened.One thing I did right when designing my venture with raising birds in captivity was build big arese pens & coops. I have only been raising birds in captivity for a few years now.
For over twenty years I helped wood ducks in the wild it was my way of putting something back in nature. The wood duck was going extinct at one point & time. I had over twenty wood duck houses that I built & monitored. I was a wood duck freak. Their very interesting birds to say the least. The wood duck would brood in my houses the house was a safe place for them to lay their eggs & hatch their young. The birds were quite docile when sitting on their eggs. I had side doors on the boxes & could actually open the door & grab the bird. I started banding the birds to find out where they lived up north. About the time I started my banding of the birds progress came to the land where I had all my houses & that ended that. Boo!! After that I had no place to be within nature so I moved here to our farm & decided I was gonna raise birds in captivity. Well, I liked it & now have yep you just said it chicken math. But all my birds have big pens or coops whatever you want to call them & they free range about 5 hours a day. I don't have show chickens there just red layers I hatched most of them. We all get along & they are a sight to watch. I have a few that will jump up in my lap & we ride around the farm on my golf cart & shoot the breeze with each other.

 

[loanwizard]

I have 9 backyard birds ranging in age from 7 months to 5 years. I have 3 americana mixes 2 silkies 1 jersey giant 1 buff orp 2 australorps. The birds sleep in a coop overnight but are allowed to freerange in the yard the rest of the time. They are locked in the coop overnight only. The pen that contains the coop is covered with a metal roof and tarped on the north and west sides. It is a 10 x10 dog kennel.There is also a small dog house in the pen that has a single nest box in it. The birds lay in the coop and the dog house. The coop is too small to house the birds indoor and so they are never locked up in it even in bad weather but they have access to a wind free,dry pen at all times.The bottom of the coop is covered in wood shavings and the nest boxes are filled with straw. I scoop the overnight poop of the shavings daily and change out the nest box straw monthly. The inside of the coop and perches are washed down spring and again in the fall before winter really sets in. I use a bleach and soap mix to do that ans let air dry in the sun completely before putting the birds back.

The area they freerange in is divided. One side of the yard is wood mulch with no grass at all ( I have a dog who has a contact allery to grass) The other side is grass which is never sprayed with fertilizer or pesticide or herbicide.

They eat Purina layer crumbles,nutrena scratch wild bird seed with BOSS and leftovers and scraps from the kitchen. They get some kind of a mash type breakfast everyday. For example today they got layer crumbles soaked in hot water with left over chicken noodle casserole mixed in. Yesterday it was baked pumpkin with cottage cheese and red pepper flakes with hot wet layer mash I add crushed egg shell 3 to 4 times a week to their feed as well as a kelp ,nutritional yeast, garlic supplement 2x a week.They also have constant access to oyster shell. I feed minced raw game meat 2 or 3 times during molt which typically occurs in the fall(right now) and again in spring . The water dish is changed daily and has ACV added daily as well

The problems I am having are a constant battle with lice,thin shelled eggs from the jersey and also one of the mutts, poor feathering on all but the australorps,constant head shaking like they have ear mites and the jersey has had a bald patch on her chest since this past spring. I also have 5 out of 9 birds with bumble foot altho none of them are evidencing pain or limping. I havent seen any worms in the poops. I dont count on the silkies for eggs and the buff orp has never been a layer so that leaves me 6 active layers and I get anywhere from 3 to 6 eggs a day. I average 4 eggs a day from 6 birds so I feel like egg production is right where it should be but the birds arent in optimal health and Id like to change that.

I have been dusting the birds weekly now for over a month. I dust with DE one week and then with permethrin the next week. This summer I cut off the feathers with egg clusters around the vents and dusted birds in an effort to short circut the lices breeding cycle but no luck. I have washed dusted and sprayed the coop and perches and nest boxes as well. The nest boxes have DE in them . I have not attempted to treat the bumblefoot as of yet.

I dont know where to go from here. I think Im doing what I should be but Im clearly failing somewhere since I cant seem to contain the lice nor put my girls back into good feather and I have bumblefoot in half of them.

Let me tell you what. Your birds are fed much better than mine as far as a human standpoint. Mine do free range, but you feed good stuff it seems. If you are feeding layer feed, the oyster shell is kind of overkill in my opinion and I am not an old timer. I will leave the lice problem to Bee or others, but that may be your feather problem as well. I don't know and will listen and learn.

 

[Beekissed]

I have 9 backyard birds ranging in age from 7 months to 5 years. I have 3 americana mixes 2 silkies 1 jersey giant 1 buff orp 2 australorps. The birds sleep in a coop overnight but are allowed to freerange in the yard the rest of the time. They are locked in the coop overnight only. The pen that contains the coop is covered with a metal roof and tarped on the north and west sides. It is a 10 x10 dog kennel.There is also a small dog house in the pen that has a single nest box in it. The birds lay in the coop and the dog house. The coop is too small to house the birds indoor and so they are never locked up in it even in bad weather but they have access to a wind free,dry pen at all times.The bottom of the coop is covered in wood shavings and the nest boxes are filled with straw. I scoop the overnight poop of the shavings daily and change out the nest box straw monthly. The inside of the coop and perches are washed down spring and again in the fall before winter really sets in. I use a bleach and soap mix to do that ans let air dry in the sun completely before putting the birds back.

The area they freerange in is divided. One side of the yard is wood mulch with no grass at all ( I have a dog who has a contact allery to grass) The other side is grass which is never sprayed with fertilizer or pesticide or herbicide.

They eat Purina layer crumbles,nutrena scratch wild bird seed with BOSS and leftovers and scraps from the kitchen. They get some kind of a mash type breakfast everyday. For example today they got layer crumbles soaked in hot water with left over chicken noodle casserole mixed in. Yesterday it was baked pumpkin with cottage cheese and red pepper flakes with hot wet layer mash I add crushed egg shell 3 to 4 times a week to their feed as well as a kelp ,nutritional yeast, garlic supplement 2x a week.They also have constant access to oyster shell. I feed minced raw game meat 2 or 3 times during molt which typically occurs in the fall(right now) and again in spring . The water dish is changed daily and has ACV added daily as well

The problems I am having are a constant battle with lice,thin shelled eggs from the jersey and also one of the mutts, poor feathering on all but the australorps,constant head shaking like they have ear mites and the jersey has had a bald patch on her chest since this past spring. I also have 5 out of 9 birds with bumble foot altho none of them are evidencing pain or limping. I havent seen any worms in the poops. I dont count on the silkies for eggs and the buff orp has never been a layer so that leaves me 6 active layers and I get anywhere from 3 to 6 eggs a day. I average 4 eggs a day from 6 birds so I feel like egg production is right where it should be but the birds arent in optimal health and Id like to change that.

I have been dusting the birds weekly now for over a month. I dust with DE one week and then with permethrin the next week. This summer I cut off the feathers with egg clusters around the vents and dusted birds in an effort to short circut the lices breeding cycle but no luck. I have washed dusted and sprayed the coop and perches and nest boxes as well. The nest boxes have DE in them . I have not attempted to treat the bumblefoot as of yet.

I dont know where to go from here. I think Im doing what I should be but Im clearly failing somewhere since I cant seem to contain the lice nor put my girls back into good feather and I have bumblefoot in half of them.

I can't say for sure about things unless I actually saw your land and setup but I can make a few suggestions that may be a turning point in their health.

First, it sounds like they may be a little overfed but I can't be sure because I don't know if you feed free choice or by the meal. All the cooking and preparation of foods isn't necessary for chickens, though I know a lot of people on the forum think that's the way to go. If you make any adjustments to your feeding regimen, I'd suggest moving towards just fermenting the layer feed and whole grains that you currently feed and feeding them once or twice a day until they are doing better, then maybe moving that to once a day.

The pumpkins are a good supplement in the middle of winter when they lack any good, fresh forage, so I'd let those ferment as well and feed them later on. Not daily...maybe weekly or bi-weekly if you have the pumpkins.

Bleaching any environment or equipment in the coop is just not something I ever recommend, nor dusting the whole place with powders of any kind. All that does is kill everything...unfortunately, it also kills all the beneficial bacteria, yeasts and other organisms that keep a healthy balance in their environment. Doubly unfortunate, the bad guys grow and populate that now empty slate much quicker than the good guys and then they rule once again. This necessitates repeated bleachings and poisonings and so the cycle goes round and round, where it stops nobody knows.

Same with DE...just kills all the goodies in the soil. Not a good thing to do..ever.

Start a deep litter going in your coop...I know you said you have pine shavings but deep litter is a little different than just having deep shavings in the coop that you keep raking out. Leave that poop and work it into the litter and keep building on that. Contrary to theories that deep litter is a hiding place for mites and lice and will promote their life, it is also a hiding place for those creatures that prey on their larvae. Yes, even parasites have parasites. Make a good home for the parasites of the parasites and you won't have a good home for the parasites. I hope that wasn't too confusing.

There is a good thread on this forum that discusses proper deep litter, so I won't go into that here but a good deep litter system is a healthy way to help chickens who need good bacteria in their lives, as the deep litter is just a petri dish for the growth of beneficial microorganism.

So...to recap, good fermented feed to populate their insides with good bacteria and deep litter to grow good bacteria in the coop environment. These are long term fixes that, when nurtured and developed, will keep your flock from getting these bad things instead of trying to treat for them once they have been gotten.

For fast relief of the current problems, place NuStock on those nits at the base of the feathers, on the skin of their face and ears, and dust these chickens thoroughly with wood ashes. Not DE. Wood ashes worked lovingly and deeply under the feathers and into the skin. Then set up a good dusting area of the same. You can even place the ashes in the nesting box.

Speaking of the nesting box...get rid of straw. Hay, yes, straw, no. Straw has lovely little tubes where bad boys like to hide and live until they can come out at night and bite someone. You can use hay or pine shavings for the nest boxes and even place a little wood ashes there.

If the coop is too small for them to get into and out of cold weather, this is something I would change. I assume CO has weather somewhat similar to where I live and though an open air coop system is nice for the ventilation, birds like to sleep somewhere a little more snug and out of the wind when cold weather blows. If not, they will be using all the nutrition in their feeds to keep warm instead of for health and growth. If your coop is too small for all your birds at once, this needs to change...either eliminate some of the birds or construct a bigger coop space.

If eliminating, I'd start with your Buff and the Silkies...eating but not producing. In these economic times, it just isn't feasible to keep supporting non-producers.

Bumble foot:

, have been identified in some rare cases of bumble foot, if the wound hasn’t been noticed and treated before it becomes acute.

For your birds I'd be looking as nutrition as the cause of the bumble foot unless you have some pretty bad roosting options. Bad roosting won't cause the poor feathering, but the nutritional deficiencies will. So, for birds with bumble foot AND poor feathering, you might want to look at nutrition. All the feeds and varieties you are feeding may seem like a great thing but you can get too much of a good thing and also it prevents you from giving them enough of a good thing.

A well-balanced layer feed and just a few whole grains, coupled with free range, are pretty much all they need. Back off all the cooked foods and nutritional yeast, keep the shells and layer feeds. Ferment the feeds they have to give them some good probios in their guts. When adding proteins, keep in mind that they can only process so much before it has to be excreted and it is very hard on the renal function. Poor renal function can lead to poor skin and feathering, loss of weight, poor health. Older birds and those in poor health have a much harder time processing proteins, so this is doubly true for them. High protein diets are for high performance animals that are getting a lot of exercise, are being prepared for show, or for growing out CX if you don't care about their health while they are alive.

I know it's tempting to throw everything at the flock when you are desparate to help them, so dusting with DE, bleaching everything and powering up on the high pro diets seem like a powerful way to slam the door on bad things in the flock but, as you can testify, they do little to help in the long term. And everyone wants a healthy, shiny flock that doesn't need much tweaking, don't they?

One important thing to note. Once you have the flock back on track and they are all doing well...except a few...take a good look at those few and consider culling. When the bulk of your flock is healthy and stays that way on your husbandry methods but you always have a few that have thin shells, don't lay, have recurring health issues, those are the birds that will never be healthy no matter how long you try to make them so. At that time you might want to take a long, hard look at your goals for your flock and see if these flock members fit into that picture.

I hope you implement these suggestions and come back to give some feedback on your results so that others may learn too.

 

[Missa Chickabee]

• Nutrition:

Excess Protein: Bumble foot can be caused by internal bacteria as a result of extra protein stored in the bird's kidney. This problem occurrs after increasing the amount of eggs in their diet. Over time that the stored protein promotes the growth of bad bacteria which the body excretes through the skin. The feathers absorb most of it, except on the featherless feet, where the bacteria settle and show up as a pink color bumble, which then turns red and dark blue filled with cyst


Two of my 18 hens are each laying a little water balloon on the poop board every other night. (Can't ID whuch two yet) Have been feeding back eggs and shells to the whole bunch. In view of the warning above, how many eggs are too many if they're being fed a standard 18% layer mash?

What about just feeding them back the yolks?

Is it not true that fermenting feeds and using extra grains necessitates an increase in protein?

Gosh, ya think you're doing something good for them only to find out you're fast-forwarding them to renal failure!

 

[Beekissed]

I'd say not much. That article was for general avian info, mostly geared towards small, pet birds. Giving them cooked eggs is a little more per body percentage than big chickens, though I wouldn't go out of my way to feed chickens eggs every day unless they are just accident eggs like yours and you are letting the whole flock consume the soft shelled eggs. Any additional eggs than maybe one a day just aren't needed in a good layer mix like yours.

 

[Missa Chickabee]

I'd say not much. That article was for general avian info, mostly geared towards small, pet birds. Giving them cooked eggs is a little more per body percentage than big chickens, though I wouldn't go out of my way to feed chickens eggs every day unless they are just accident eggs like yours and you are letting the whole flock consume the soft shelled eggs. Any additional eggs than maybe one a day just aren't needed in a good layer mix like yours.

I don't cook them... just (til now) have been moistening the mash with some raw eggs, all our eggshells, and a bit of ACV water. So one egg in the meal for all 18? I've really been overdoing it! (Sorry, BK I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes. Hospital-induced brain-cell damage)

 

[Beekissed]

• Nutrition:

Excess Protein: Bumble foot can be caused by internal bacteria as a result of extra protein stored in the bird's kidney. This problem occurrs after increasing the amount of eggs in their diet. Over time that the stored protein promotes the growth of bad bacteria which the body excretes through the skin. The feathers absorb most of it, except on the featherless feet, where the bacteria settle and show up as a pink color bumble, which then turns red and dark blue filled with cyst


Two of my 18 hens are each laying a little water balloon on the poop board every other night. (Can't ID whuch two yet) Have been feeding back eggs and shells to the whole bunch. In view of the warning above, how many eggs are too many if they're being fed a standard 18% layer mash?

What about just feeding them back the yolks?

Is it not true that fermenting feeds and using extra grains necessitates an increase in protein?

Gosh, ya think you're doing something good for them only to find out you're fast-forwarding them to renal failure!

Depends on those grains and supplements being fed. Nutritional yeast is 39% protein!

BOSS is 26.3...so depending on how much you are feeding of these types of whole grains.

When supplementing with both, you are essentially, boosting your 16% layer ration to 81% at any given time. This is pretty bad mojo for tiny chicken kidneys.

If feeding 18% layer and the fermented feed increases the utilization of that layer protein, you may actually be getting a good part of the actual 18% you are feeding. What the FF does is increase the absorption and availability of the proteins you are feeding, not necessarily increasing the actual total protein that is fed. When not using the fermentation on the same feed, a goodly portion of your 18% is being expelled onto the coop floor because it didn't get broken down well enough to be digested and utilized by the bird.

 

[armorfirelady]

Last check of the night on the Gnarly Bunch: Guess who has a perfectly clean butt and perfectly normal poops??? Yes! You guessed it! Miss Messy Butt of the infamous butt pictures!!!!

That does it...I'm buying stock in NuStock.

Clean, pink and no juice, no smell, no runny brown discharge, no swelling. Watched a normal chicken poop drop as the light was shining directly on it...no signs of ulcers at the corners of the vent.

Two days from that horrible picture....now, nothing.

I've decided to call her Ruby Crockett, after my granny.

Thats awesome Bee