The Seney thread

[Ducks and Banny hens]

Folks, please don't argue too much, I would hate to see this thread closed.

I heard about these birds before and find them interesting. I personally wouldn't pay that much for them but that's just me. If they were showable I might pay a decent price just because they are eye catching. I encourage you to keep going with this project, once it gets more popularity people will start buying them like crazy. Have you thought about listing eggs/birds online for a lower price just for people to get started with them in an affordable way? If you start an auction for them at say, $50 for a pair and let the bidding go up from there, it is publicity. People will see it and want to get them so you start posting birds online with lower price for started pairs or something. Posting here on the forum and other sites is publicity. Spread the word more, make a facebook page for your farm, offer specials and have contests, I have a feeling these will become more popular with time.

p.s. I loved your story about your talk with the birds.

Hah! Me too! I didn't ever think of anything that cute in my threads (which are locked {grimace}). Perhaps that was catching flies with honey. I was catching flies with vinegar "get the *** of my thread!!"

You know what else you could do? Write articles. I've written articles for Backyard Poultry, and people will pay you more respect here, if the editor does there .

And no, Backyard Poultry is not nearly as City-chicks-oriented as it sounds. Many serious breeders and showers subscribe, too.

 

[Buck bird]

Very shrude. There were only two pictures, yes. Does that mean they are genetically unstable? Does that mean they are worthless? Does that mean they are mutts? No. You made the point yourself. This is an internet forum. Your not God. Nobody can look at a few photos and make a just judgement about the subject without having any experience whatsoever. How can you possibly know if a bird is a mutt or not by the photos? You cant. My advise is that people deserve the benefit of the doubt until they are proven to be dishonest about some birds. My point was not that you think the Seneys are bad, but that you've decided that they are mutts from just pictures.

I didn't suggest that you are an idiot. What did I say? I said that you aren't as knowledgable about Seneys as Birkshire is. Is that true? Yes. You haven't bred them, have you? Have you ever even seen a flock of them or even one specimen in person? No. Ryan and Birkshire are the only ones here who have experience with the breed. I don't myself, but I, like I mentioned above, would rather give people the benefit of the doubt when I don't know much about something. All I know is that it really hurts when you are trying to promote the fruits of years of hard work and everybody talks you down as some grifter.

"Nobody can look at a few photos and make a just judgement about the subject without having any experience whatsoever."
Really, have you not done this yourself? How do YOU know that this is a "breed"? Just because a few people claim something is true does not make it so. Even you would have to admit this.

"My point was not that you think the Seneys are bad, but that you've decided that they are mutts from just pictures."
I have read through their site, and I'd guess that NYREDS has also, and there is more information than just pictures on there. I still agree with him.

"Ryan and Birkshire are the only ones here who have experience with the breed"
If you look back, you'll the that ryanzeirke doesn't have "Seneys" but was only asking about them.

Now IMO, this is not a breed YET. There is more things that must be done IHMO, for them to be considered one.

Buck bird

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

I haven't decided for myself if this is or isn't a breed, because, like you, I don't own any. I'm taking Seney's word for it that it is legitimate, because, like I said, it's painful to have nobody believe you after years of labour and thousands of dollars (* I know what your going to say. No, there isn't any reason to believe he spent so long or so much on the breed, but there isn't any reason to doubt it, either). I can not say that this is or isn't a breed. But neither can you. So why can't everyone just accept that we all know nothing, and assume it is a breed until we have solid reason to mistrust Seney.

 

[Buck bird]

I haven't decided for myself if this is or isn't a breed, because, like you, I don't own any. I'm taking Seney's word for it that it is legitimate, because, like I said, it's painful to have nobody believe you after years of labour and thousands of dollars (* I know what your going to say. No, there isn't any reason to believe he spent so long or so much on the breed, but there isn't any reason to doubt it, either). I can not say that this is or isn't a breed. But neither can you. So why can't everyone just accept that we all know nothing, and assume it is a breed until we have solid reason to mistrust Seney.

I agree to an extent. I myself think they have a long road to become a true "breed." But that's just my opinion. .

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

I agree to an extent. I myself think they have a long road to become a true "breed." But that's just my opinion. .

I respect your opinion. My opinion is that as long as Seney has a standard for his birds, and the biggest majority of the birds match it, then it's legitimate.

Although, the Single combed variety could ruin the d'Uccle's True bantam-ness

BTW, Welcome to BYC

 

[flowerchild59]

I am sure that Nettie got a lot of flack in her day when she developed the buckeye breed. Time will tell if the seney is a real breed.

 

[phasianidae]

"Ryan and Birkshire are the only ones here who have experience with the breed"
If you look back, you'll the that ryanzeirke doesn't have "Seneys" but was only asking about them.

You are correct in that I do not own any Seneys. But as long as we are into correcting people on this thread, my name is spelled "Zierke" which is pronounced "Zer-kee" in English, and in German is pronounced "Cee-et-ca". Thanks.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

[Buck bird]

Sorry about that, Ryan.

 

[Birkshire-Spur]

Thanks for the words of encouragement and for your support for the Seney breed.

I had stated that there were three others with these, but the fact is that there may be more now. They were a hit at a country fair and the guy that showed them might have already provided some people with some. Hopefully we will be able to coordinate a meeting with the people that have them this summer to go over breeding plans and requirements.

I personally don’t know how many are going to be available this year from anybody. I guess a couple of people think we are trying to get rich on them. That’s a joke. As I said before, I don’t know anybody who has gotten rich selling this type of poultry. We all lose money. I don’t know if I will be selling any myself, but that remains to be seen if I even have the time to try. That is the biggest hurdle to get over for most of us. I don’t know about others with Seneys, but I am not going to spend a whole day crating up 3 birds for a total of $15. It’s just not going to happen.

On another note, I saw some constructive criticism in this thread and appreciate it. There was a lot of sense in what was said. And I am glad you liked the little story.

Unfortunately, all boards have people that berate others when they really don’t understand things. It doesn’t bother me. I sometimes feel sorry for them. Most of the time it is water off a duck’s back. But it is nice to see support, especially from others that have been berated themselves.

In regards to colors and shades, all breeds generate different shades. All you have to do is to read F. P. Jeffrey’s book “Bantam Chickens” and you will see that scientists have found many heterozygous pairs of alleles on chromosomes that one would surely think would be homozygous on a “Pure Breed.” They split them off to study their effects. In-fact, ALL of the “pure breeds” in the world are not “Pure.” A new breed and/or color can be derived from any given set of pure bred chickens.

Don’t get me wrong, breeders of “pure breds” preserve alleles and I believe that is their best function. If everybody tried to make a new breed there would be total chaos. But to bash somebody for being a maverick and taking the chicken genome where others fear to go is ridiculous. If we lose every person that can do this, we are doomed to only having what others have created many years ago. If somebody is smart enough to learn the chicken genome well enough to be able to create new breed, that is marvelous. It is a service to everyone.

With that said, the show birds that make the cut from one’s flock to be shown are selected to match the Standard as close as can be. But even that can be bogus. I have been to large shows where birds were the total wrong color and got placed. One judge didn’t even know the difference between an Araucana and an Ameraucana. He and I nearly got into an argument over it. In the end, he gave out a first place award for an Araucana to an Ameraucana. Sometimes you just can’t convince people who “think” they know everything. Being a judge doesn’t make you a god. Again, the fact of the matter is, if there was a “Standard” for one particular color of Seney, the breeders going to shows would do exactly like the other breeders do; pick out the best birds that match as close to the standard as possible. The other chickens within that “breed” where their color is “slightly off” the Standard all stay home in the pens right next to the ones taken to the show.

Back to colors. First of all, a color does not define a “breed.” A breed can come in many colors. Take Dutch Bantams for instance. They come in a variety of colors. But they are all Dutch IF they adhere to type. This is very important. The Seney Breed was developed to define a new “type.” Perfecting a color is for breeders who want to focus on just one color and bang at it until they can get a few that “might” win at a show. Hopefully there will be more breeders that will do this with the Seneys. The Seney does come in defined colors. The Wheaten and the Mille Fleur are examples. There have been other colors that were perfected, but were dropped.

Obviously to get into the SOP, somebody is going to have to put a stake in the ground and focus on one of the colors available. And yes, the comb will have to be defined as pea or single to get listed in the book. But there can be pea combed Seneys and Single combed Seneys just like there are rose combed breeds and single combed birds in the same breed. But what we have here is an opportunity for people to choose which combs they like. We have seen it even in this thread that some prefer single over pea and vice versa. Eventually one of the two combs will be selected for the SOP listing. But that doesn’t mean that the other comb styled Seneys are not part of the breed. Perfecting a comb style between pea or single is a piece of cake, btw.

Will the Seney chicken make it into the SOP. Maybe, maybe not. But at the end of the day it will remain to be a breed; regardless if there are a few people who will never accept it.

In regards to money; I wanted these birds. That is the bottom line. I don’t own a Porsche, but I have my Seneys. Life is good for me.

What I am looking forward to this year is to see how the other Seney breeder with Porcelain project birds make out. They have all mahogany based ones and I have one mahogany based male and a couple of Mille Fleur based ones. I can’t wait to see which ones look the best for Porcelain!

It has been an interesting read and thank you all for participating and showing an interest in the Seney breed.

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

Back to colors. First of all, a color does not define a “breed.”

I' just like to point out that many do associate color=breed, and this has lead to the outright damage of alot of good old breeds, and gives new breeds a rough time, like the Orpington/Bessemer problem. Bessies wouldn't even have existed if more people knew that non-Orpington ducks could be Buff, too. And the Swedish/Shetland problem. Everybody thinks a black uck with a bib is a Swedish. Let me tell you this type of garbage can make it difficult at the county fair.

A breed can come in many colors. Take Dutch Bantams for instance. They come in a variety of colors. But they are all Dutch IF they adhere to type. This is very important. The Seney Breed was developed to define a new “type.” Perfecting a color is for breeders who want to focus on just one color and bang at it until they can get a few that “might” win at a show. Hopefully there will be more breeders that will do this with the Seneys. The Seney does come in defined colors. The Wheaten and the Mille Fleur are examples. There have been other colors that were perfected, but were dropped.

Yes, fundamentally, Type, size and growth rate are the only things that really define a breed. All landraces have their own type. Lets look at three of them...

- Icelandic -
Icelandic fowl have been foun in around 700 color patterns (a massive dance around the color genome), and their combs and shanks and even the backs of their heads are totally unpredictable. But all Icelandics have more or less the same type, size and growth rate. They are a breed, and nobody argues against that point.

- Bow Lake fowl -
Bow Lake fowl are a very recent landrace, and Canada's first Semi-Bantam breed. The genome of BLFs can easily wander into over 20 color varieties, and although they are always Single combed, they may or may not have feathered shanks. There type, size and growth rate is consistent. They're a breed, and noboy says otherwise.

- Serama -
The Serama, believe it or not, is a landrace. It has been found in over 2,100 color varieties, and in Silkie, Botted, Tassled, Frizzled, and Sizzled, but it's type is (although hard to achieve and impractical. It is a breed, in fact, the US's most popular bantam breed. It kicked the OEGB out of top-spot in under 9 years. Nobody will tell you that Seramas are not a breed.



- Seney -
Not a landrace (of course), but again, Type, Growth rate, Color, Comb type, and Size are all intact. It is over-qualifie to bear the title 'breed'.