The Welsummer Thread!!!!

[Tailfeathers]

Okay, got some better pictures of my pullet. I wish she's lay some eggs!

This is one of the nicest hens (in my opinion, that is) I have seen pictured on this thread--wonderful balance and back line, nice small head, good color including shanks, nice comb. Only observable fault, though that may have to do with the snapshot situation is the tail angle, which is too low (60 percent is called for in the APA standard). Thank you for sharing this picture. It is always a delight to see some representations of our better Welsummers.

This is the great thing about chickens and the SOP - it leaves room for some difference of opinion. While I totally respect my friend Bjorn's opinion (and I hope he won't mind me disagreeing with him a bit

, I would disagree. I personally would like to see a little flatter back without the raised area just before the tail. The shanks in my eye are just a little too long and the color is much too white/pinkish. I also would like to see a bit more distance between the legs. The thigh area sticks out more than what I like to see and the tail appears to be a bit pinched. I do like the shape of the head but I personally prefer the darker copper/orangish hackle over the yellow/gold hackles.

Now I am in NO way saying this to trash your bird HC but rather just to point out that two breeders (or two judges for that matter) can look at the same bird and see two different things.

God Bless,

 

[Happy Chooks]

No worries Royce. Like I said, I'm still learning. I actually like her light hackles because my rooster is very dark. I'm hoping I will get a happy medium when I breed them. Her legs are yellow, it's just the lighting. Yellow leg color is definitely something I am going to be working on in my flock.

 

[Hozer]

I have welsummer too.. 2 pullets: willy and sunny... But they have not lay any eggs yet and they are adult size... I guess mine are a little slow..

My first batch of birds started laying a little shy of 6 months. The hens started "yelling" at me. I thought "What's their problem?" They began laying shortly after that.

 

[Hozer]

Question for you all....

I have a huge hen that has, to my untrained eye, the perfect comb. It looks like a mini rooster comb. Is this a good or bad trait. BTW she's older now but was a good layer of a nice dark, evenly colored, pointed egg.

I know, I know, post a picture. I'll work on that.

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

This is the great thing about chickens and the SOP - it leaves room for some difference of opinion. While I totally respect my friend Bjorn's opinion (and I hope he won't mind me disagreeing with him a bit

, I would disagree. I personally would like to see a little flatter back without the raised area just before the tail. The shanks in my eye are just a little too long and the color is much too white/pinkish. I also would like to see a bit more distance between the legs. The thigh area sticks out more than what I like to see and the tail appears to be a bit pinched. I do like the shape of the head but I personally prefer the darker copper/orangish hackle over the yellow/gold hackles.

Now I am in NO way saying this to trash your bird HC but rather just to point out that two breeders (or two judges for that matter) can look at the same bird and see two different things.

God Bless,

Interesting rebuttal, Royce. Evidently, you and I don't have the same "ideal" Welsummer in mind, which is OK. My comment on this hen's back line stems from my seeing the vast majority of Welsummers with a distinctly sloping back toward the tail, which totally ruins the overall balance, so this hen is far superior in that respect ... even with that little "cushony" area toward the end of her back. Her length of shank I actually like very much, as some of the Welsummers are too low (in my opinion), and Lowell Barber and I both tried to breed against this trait at one time, as did Ron Nelson. The APA SOP does not specify shank length, however, so it may come down to a breeders' and judges' preference, which I find unfortunate; specific language should be added in the SOP so as to obviate "preferences" in this regard and all breeders/judges could strive for the same goal. Likewise, I find the omission of tail spread characteristic in the SOP to be most unfortunate; as you and others do, I like to see some spread, but I would defer to the Dutch/British standard type that does not call for the type of spread of our US leghorns and some others (the Dutch standard pictures along with pictures on their winning birds on shows have always guided me in this area). In my opinion, this hen has as close to an ideal teal spread as I have seen (again, according to "my ideal") though many may differ. And while on the subject of 'tail' -- the SOP calls for a tail that is "long, carried high at an angle of 60 degrees above the horizontal" -- which is not very precise. "Long" in this connection should perhaps be relative to the type, and not to mean like the relative length of the tail of a Hamburg or Leghorn et al. The coloring of the shanks is always a challenge, and some pictures (as season and length of lay for the hens) do not give a very accurate representation of this color. Of course, I love to see birds with butter yellow shanks (sometimes in evidence at shows), but I can't tell from this picture. As for the spread, I would not be offering any opinion on the basis of these pictures other than that they look fine to me from what I can tell.
As the SOP calls for "golden brown" or "copper" in the hackles, it leaves open more room for preferences. This, too, should be settled in the SOP. Comparing German birds to Dutch/British birds, the Germans have a much darker type (including the "copper" in the hackles), and their lemon-yellow variety is sort of an extreme type of the lighter birds, a little bit like how our brown Leghorns eventually split into the light and dark varieties (though the Germans have also introduced a silver variety as well).
The Welsummers are still a relatively new breed, and it may take some time for people (both breeders AND judges) to come to some consensus on these issues. What one should not lose sight of in the process of all this is the production quality of the breed: the dark, dark brown large egg. Here the British have birds far superior to what one sees in other European countries, and the Dutch have started importing birds/eggs from the UK to improve on this trait in their own lines. It would be ironic if we developed superior birds for the show room who has none of the production traits that made the breed desirable in the first place, as is today the case with many of our white Leghorns.
Most of what I have offered here is based on my "opinions" as well as recollections of what I read in (mostly) Dutch article copies of years ago and some British material. Of course, it will be up to the breeders in any given country to establish their regional/national ideal, but that ideal should be clearly presented in the SOP.
Finally, Royce, I know you have some superior birds, as you have shared some pictures of them, so these musings are not meant to start an argument over type; rather, it is meant to suggest that the type and more exact description be included in the SOP before we end up with impossibly divergent types on championship row.
Happy Holidays, everybody!

 

[bigtom30648]

I have a question about Welsummer varieties. Am I correct in assuming that the APA only recognizes the Partridge variety and not the Gold and Silver Duckwing variety. I am asking because while filling out my registration for a show in January that is one of the question listed is the variety of bird.

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jeb251]

I have never seen the duckwings in the us, I would like to find some

 

[faykokoWV]

my avatar is a bantam silver duckwing Welsummer hen- I hope to breed them up in size and darken the eggs by breeding them to my LF standard Welsummers. To my knowledge they are not available in the US in the LF version

 

[20736]

I just want to say how much I appreciate Tailfeathers and Dr. Bjorn taking the time to educate so many of us on the nuances of Welsummer breeding. It will probably save me years of effort just having this information now rather than later.
Thanks x 1,000,000.

 

[Happy Chooks]

I just want to say how much I appreciate Tailfeathers and Dr. Bjorn taking the time to educate so many of us on the nuances of Welsummer breeding. It will probably save me years of effort just having this information now rather than later.
Thanks x 1,000,000.

Ditto.

Bjorn - thank you for further commenting. By tail spread, I assume you are talking about the upside down V shape of the tail feathers? If so, yes, that is something that has been an issue in my flock with having more "pinched" tails. I love that her spread is wide, and this will be a great quality to improve my flock. Also, she hatched from a nice, dark egg.

No bird is perfect, but she has great qualities that will help me with improving my flock. I can't wait to see her offspring.