The whole flock is sick! how to save them?

[cowcreekgeek]

I have had some similar issues with my flock in the past few months with less death because I have treated and sent birds for necropsy.
I am still waiting for final results but the last 5 birds I sent in last week have gross results that seem pretty clear to me and others that I regularly consult with. The initial findings were incoonclusive around 6 weeks ago, with 5 birds necropsied and the lab sent me kits to take swabs of other birds. Be sure to ask your lab what they can do because its not usual, but they will do it. In Ct most of this is free including the courier that will come take the birds to the lab in Storrs. I did have a negative on coryza and MG (though I think it was a false negative on MG in that they have found it here before...this is different and nonresponsive to MG treatment) I was preparing to vaccinate my flock for these things but I wanted a real diagnosis before moving ahead as birds may exhibit illness for a couple of weeks when vaccinated (see www.firststatevetsupply.com and talk to Peter Brown there for info on vaccines)
Rather than send the swabs, I called and sent 5 sick birds because they had a variety of issues and I hadnt seen this in this constellation before. The gross findings were that there was thick pus like a plug in the throat that was literally choking them. I showed this to someone that knows poultry disease and that person confirmed what I was thing which was: Laryngotracheitis .
I ordered the vaccine here: http://www.firststatevetsupply.com/...cines/laryngotracheitis-vaccine-lt-i-vax.html
(but am waiting for results from the lab) and realized going over things, and doing much research, that one thing that has worked is VetRX!! It loosens the phlem that is common in this disease...watery eyes, bubbly eyes, clear discharge, some phlem in the throat, and then in extreme cases, the eyes are swollen shut with much watery stuff inside and the sinus' fill up with thick mucus that comes out the hole on the roof of the beak in the back of the mouth and goes down the throa. But what also happens is that the thick rubbery pus gathers on the opening of the trachea and it obscures it more and more until they literally choke to death. They shake their heads alot to dislodge this stuff but also they can inhale it and die if they do dislodge it.
I went up to the one coop where Ive had this today with my vetrx and some probiotics and vitamins, fruit and such, and I only so far have addressed the worst ones. The ones that are trying to breathe and are puffed up got vetrx....then the other...then I started to look closer and the worst one was gaping...I held her and massaged her throat to see if I could help her out a little, cleared her nares, and looked her over. I realized that the opening to her trachea came upward when I massaged and I could see yellow rubbery pus in the opening. Being careful that she could breathe I gently massaged all around that from underneath, and the plug popped out! I then gave her some more vet rx, she could breathe but still has much more liquid junk in her throat...and let her go. she seems fine. I remember reading that a long swab would help with this, and I believe it would. I was able to help out a few more like this...and will call the lab tomorrow to see what they think. I am interested in anyone that might have info of another diease that has this tracheal plug....
Coryza is what most people go to because its the worst and most feared but many treatments address the commercial poultry business and backyard chicken keepers cant always burn their birds or put them all down.
MG is everywhere, and I am looking into vaccinating my entire flock and any incoming birds for these things.
You cannot pass on these birds, even vaccinated, but its better than culling your whole flock knowing that wild birds/animals and people at the feed store are covered with these germs...there is no biosecurity strong enough to make it OK not to vaccinate, as far as Im concerned. Birds that are carriers might get sick enough to cull or they may die, but that is also a way to tell who is a carrier. Future vaccinated birds will not get the diease from the vaccinated birds, but still you cant move them on.
I always urge people to use the lab for diagnosis, but also know that most labs and states deal with what works for commercial poultry operations, so use the info gained there and then consult with Peter Brown of First State Vet Supply or with your local chicken keepers group where people may have hands on experience with these things in a backyard chicken keeping world. This is a new area so we have to use resources available.

That said, I also urge people who have not had hands on experience with natural cures and a particular disease to say that "possibly" this or that might work because it works on my cold. If you dont know about it first hand you shouldnt suggest it. This is because in the case of Coryza, MF, LT, etc...you could cause someone to lose their entire flock while they try to do something natural. If you can say "I used oregano oil on an outbreak of MG last year and half of my birds went into remission" then you have an anecdotal first hand piece of advice to give. do not tell people who have chickens dropping that they just need some ACV and that its probably sour crop. I think Ive experienced that once or twice in years of keeping hundreds of chickens.

What you can do, is to have a few things on hand all the time, like Tylan 50, needles, denaguard, sulmet, sutures, bactine, vet wrap, and a good probiotic and vitamin....Oh and Oxine for disinfecting! you can get these all online at the outlets like randall burkey, first state, Valley Vet, and any number of supply houses that you can google. and do some research on the 5 or 6 things that birds get ...always buy vaccinated chicks and vaccinate for Mareks if you hatch. Realize that along the way you will lose some birds and its better to give one or two up for necropsy to save the whole flock as opposed to nursing and nursing one bird and not finding out whats wrong.

State vets will allow shipping of birds on ice and some will send swab kits. Many will pay for transport of birds and necropsy. Your state may require you to cull your flock for certain illnesses but at a point, you may have to follow state laws if you are in a meat production state and your germs may effect the industry. I have no great love for the factory industry but I do know that these germs travel on your tires and feet from supermarket to feed store to your neighbor's coop or the large farm across town's birds. So either work on laws in your state that treat small flocks differently or follow the existing laws.

Hope that was helpful...You can save the struggling birds by taking the plug out. Thats the big message here...use a long Q tip, massage carefully allowing the bird to breathe in between, and try to get it out. VetRx clears out the mucus a little...and vacinating will stop the spread.

Good Luck!!

Hate seein' anybody go through flock-wide diseases ...
but appreciate the great info (hope you'll update w/ the final report(s), too ~'-)

http://partnersah.vet.cornell.edu/ <-- peck this one, for exceptional resources intended for avian veterinarians, and
Infectious Laryngotracheitis <-- peck that one, for Merck's Vet Manual's Introduction to this disease.

Discounted by some for seeming too ridiculously simple and inexpensive, switchin' their water out for an astringent solution of Apple Cider Vinegar at the rate of four teaspoons to each gallon (but never in galvanized metal containers) has been well proven as a treatment for respiratory diseases (and a bunch of other good stuff). The tannin from the apple reduces the viscosity of mucus by breaking down one of the sugars it contains, which makes it much easier for birds to expel. It also 'cuts through' coatings w/in the mouth, throat and intestines, so as to improve the uptake of nutrients/vitamins. This will most probably NOT cure the disease, so there's no reason not to use the cheapest form of 5% ACV that you can find (at this rate, it's a treatment which is quite literally cheaper than good dirt ~'-)

 

[cocosandy]

I can see that ACV is a good idea for this thing....Similarly, the VetRx cuts the phlem, and its a good way to go while this is going on. I just wanted to mention that its not a good idea to use ACV continuously. Its better to use it for illness or to pulse it.
Thanks for the links. Sometimes the simplest advice is the best.
Melina

 

[cowcreekgeek]

I can see that ACV is a good idea for this thing....Similarly, the VetRx cuts the phlem, and its a good way to go while this is going on. I just wanted to mention that its not a good idea to use ACV continuously. Its better to use it for illness or to pulse it.
Thanks for the links. Sometimes the simplest advice is the best.
Melina

I've bought the VetRx 'snake oil' myself (could make quarts for less than they charge for two ounces of it ~'-)
Just rubbed a few drops across my mustache a few minutes ago, now that I'm inside, where it's warm/dry. Did not go so well for me, when I was breathin' this stuff outdoors on a cold/wet day. So, I'd restrict it's use based upon the location of the animal/bird.

As to the ACV? It's great, and I was going completely on/off w/ it for a while, 'til high exposures to botulism bacteria was timed perfectly to coincide w/ the several days of filtered water w/o it ... sickened many of my birds, and killed a few before I caught/treated their intoxification from it. So, I now phase through the amount included, adjusting it constantly up/down -- this provides me the insurance against gettin' caught in between again, and I still skip it for a few days out of every few weeks (but, you can bet I closely inspect first, and watch 'em most closely when I do )-;~

 

[Sweetened]

I have had some similar issues with my flock in the past few months with less death because I have treated and sent birds for necropsy.
I am still waiting for final results but the last 5 birds I sent in last week have gross results that seem pretty clear to me and others that I regularly consult with. The initial findings were incoonclusive around 6 weeks ago, with 5 birds necropsied and the lab sent me kits to take swabs of other birds. Be sure to ask your lab what they can do because its not usual, but they will do it. In Ct most of this is free including the courier that will come take the birds to the lab in Storrs. I did have a negative on coryza and MG (though I think it was a false negative on MG in that they have found it here before...this is different and nonresponsive to MG treatment) I was preparing to vaccinate my flock for these things but I wanted a real diagnosis before moving ahead as birds may exhibit illness for a couple of weeks when vaccinated (see www.firststatevetsupply.com and talk to Peter Brown there for info on vaccines)

That said, I also urge people who have not had hands on experience with natural cures and a particular disease to say that "possibly" this or that might work because it works on my cold. If you dont know about it first hand you shouldnt suggest it. This is because in the case of Coryza, MF, LT, etc...you could cause someone to lose their entire flock while they try to do something natural. If you can say "I used oregano oil on an outbreak of MG last year and half of my birds went into remission" then you have an anecdotal first hand piece of advice to give. do not tell people who have chickens dropping that they just need some ACV and that its probably sour crop. I think Ive experienced that once or twice in years of keeping hundreds of chickens.

What you can do, is to have a few things on hand all the time, like Tylan 50, needles, denaguard, sulmet, sutures, bactine, vet wrap, and a good probiotic and vitamin....Oh and Oxine for disinfecting! you can get these all online at the outlets like randall burkey, first state, Valley Vet, and any number of supply houses that you can google. and do some research on the 5 or 6 things that birds get ...always buy vaccinated chicks and vaccinate for Mareks if you hatch. Realize that along the way you will lose some birds and its better to give one or two up for necropsy to save the whole flock as opposed to nursing and nursing one bird and not finding out whats wrong.


Good Luck!!

I debated on even posting to this, as I'm not wishing to get into a debate when the poster is trying to save their birds, however I find this post somewhat insulting and contradictory of itself. I'll say my piece and leave it be, whether or not you choose to rebutt (which is your right, of course).

In the first quoted paragraph, you suggest getting a necropsy done by a specific organization or state department that would have an equivalent on a local level and follow that up with not trusting the results and pending vaccinating your flock until you're certain. Birds exhibit illness when vaccinated for the same reason many people end up with a persistent cold after getting a flu shot: you introduce the virus to the body in a 'controlled' amount in order to build immunity -- birds surviving illness do this themselves. Though vaccinating is a preemptive and per-caretaker arrangement, it should be considered that many people, including people I know, have had negative and often worse results with vaccinated birds when compared with unvaccinated. However, despite the tone of this paragraph, that is your right, and despite vaccines having killed birds just as others believe they have saved them -- I do not say that I advise against it as you could lose your entire flock (and it is a possibility).

Which brings me to why I'm insulted. The only way to learn natural ways to assist animals, or humans for that matter, is hands on. It's doing your research, just as it is for vaccines. To suggest someone offering the natural (often cheaper and more cost effective route as you don't have egg and meat downtime) method is endangering anyone is offensive and absolutely ludacris. Herbs have universal properties that translate out to the animal kingdom, which includes Avian and Mammalian creatures alike. While there are some exceptions (ie henbane can be consumed by the cabbage moth but is toxic to almost all other animals), the healing properties of natural remedies are effective throughout. That's why your dog getting acupuncture or water treatment helps their arthritis, and that's why oregano oil is a universally potent antibiotic that does not breed resistance -- and yes, it works in chickens. Understanding the differences between Mammals and Ave's is something I had to research when devising the use of Yogurt to battle cocci, but I took the time and feel that it has helped my flock recover from everything they've ever gotten. Animals in the wild rarely die of old age. They are either killed and eaten or fall to illness. Those who don't are the 'fittest' in the survival equation and have the propensity give life to hardier offspring.

Instead of having on hand stuff specific to livestock, then humans, then babies, and so on, you can keep track of a universally usable medical cabinet, save yourself money, and know how to use them if the worst happens and you are unable to gain access to 'conventional' western treatments.

Please re-think next time you decide to warn people that the natural cures can kill your entire flock. Tell that to the families of Viox victims. And yes, it is the same thing.

 

[cocosandy]

I think that you are misunderstanding my meaning here. I find that many people tout only the natural cures in certain cases, when they really must treat or lose their flock. There are illnesses that will definitely kill and spread to other flocks in the neighborhood. These things can spread on your feet walking in the supermarket or feed store. If you aren't familiar first hand with having your entire flock go down, then you just don't know what its like. Many of what I have seen here and in other places, suggested as "cures" are more substances that fall in the preventative category. I never said that natural cures will kill your flock, and if it was taken that way, I'm sorry...what I meant was that not treating in favor of an ideal is a mistake and THAT can kill your whole flock or make it impossible to bring in new birds without infecting them. Birds become carriers of some of these diseases that they have recovered from. So you can encourage recovery with a system of natural treatment but end up with a carrier that is shedding a virus and infecting your entire flock. This is something that I have worked on for years and my main aim is to help birds recover without becoming carriers or find a way to get the carriers out of the flock. Many of these diseases are everywhere, and the germs cannot be kept out unless you keep your birds on cement with a covered roof and practice strict bio-security. In those cases there is usually overcrowding and stress. Once you let them outside they will get these germs from wild animals dropping them. Many people are looking for alternatives to having to kill birds and looking for any sort of cure, and in the interest of the beloved current birds infects the future flock and other neighborhood flocks unknowingly.
what to do? vaccinate!
Further, my post was about what to do if your bird has chronic upper respiratory and maybe some are choking to death...Look into their throats. I found something through answers from the lab and my own research. I DO trust the lab as what they are, but they are aimed at commercial poultry and so don't have hands on experience with many of these sorts of things. Nor do they want to save an individual chicken or couple of birds; commercial poultry trade will kill them all, burn them and buy new chicks before they will look closely. They wont take a chance and their best hope is prevention.
I work with the lab and use them as a tool. If you find that somehow contradictory, then I hope you have a very good medical Dr yourself. Everyone should use their doctors and vets as a resource, but not trust 100%, because there are things that many new Dr's haven't seen (, maybe you haven't seen Lyme Disease enough up there to know about this?) I happen to have been assigned a younger pathologist who hasn't seen much of this stuff and i have had some great conversations with him about what things look like on the ground!
If that is offensive to you, then I'm sorry for you. People who get knee jerk offended as opposed to asking for clarification are not out to find out what someone meant or engage but to tsk tsk and complain. I'm not much into those that want to pick apart every sentence because I'm only posting to try to help people by telling them something Ive seen and what I'm experiencing. I take my time out to do this, and I am busy. I never charge and I often give medicines and natural remedies out to my group members and friends.
And a big part of my point, as someone that runs a large group of folks who keep backyard chickens, and as someone that does a lot of research in order to help out sick flocks, is that I am constantly
told that I should just try this or that because it worked in some limited way on a human or a dog. I encourage people try things, but I only suggest things that I have tried first hand and that I can stand behind. I never say "Ive heard that [so and so] works"...I never tell anyone to go and try something unless I've looked at it very closely at the very least. For example,
I know all about Oregano use in humans, I use it myself. I also know about the use of it in large commercial poultry facilities (see NY Times for yesterday 12/26/12 article about this,) I also know who is making chicken levels of it and about to introduce a line of natural remedies based on it. I'm not sure if it will work , but I am picking up samples in a few weeks and will let people in my circle know what I think.
I do a tremendous amount of work on my own flock and I share that happily with folks in my group and sometimes here. I always come up against someone who has some knowledge but no experience with certain things in poultry, but who wants to chastise me somehow for using antibiotics (without knowing what my real use of them is and how often I don't use them!) and who says that I need to look into this or that. But if there isn't some experience there then I will have to take it under advisement.

I suggest that people should try things and take notes, and then share.
Again, I am waiting for LAB results on swabs taken by the UConn lab. They are fabulous in many areas, but they serve the farm industry more than the backyard chicken movement, so they don't know everything that we do, nor do we know everything that they know! They are a tool and we should be a tool to them, as we are in our testing programs and feedback from the ground.
If your experience is mainly with mammals, you should know that avian medicine is very different than mammalian medicine, and its got it own specialty and board certification in the US. There is a huge difference between parrots and chickens, even within the specialty, so its not just exotics all across the board. Of course they are different from mammals in many ways, and there could be toxicity. I have found that out the hard way. I have also found out the hard way how pathetic it is to watch chickens die of worms or cocci while being treated with things that you mention. I suggest treating illness early enough to save the birds, especially when its something that is easy to identify and easy to treat that doesn't leave behind anything chronic. I also suggest prevention and using all of those things as they work for you. But don't use them as cures.
I hope that has clarified something that seemed pretty clear to me. If you still don't understand my post , please let me know and I will try to clarify further.

Melina