There are shows, and then there are shows...

[kathyinmo]

Call me naive .... I am new to poultry, and have yet to attend a show. I just assumed (yes, I know what assumed means), that judges have the standard to go by, and thus, awarded points accordingly. Is what I am hearing .... that is not so?

I mean, I bought the book ... the SOP. I have read the point system. Do you not receive points accordingly? .... Isn't that how it works?

"The General Scale of Points." There are 2 sets of points. One is for white and one is for other than white. The ones with * are points for, "other than white." The only difference in these, from the white, is that the shape and color are different points, but the total in that category is the same. The other points (without the *) are the same, white or not. .....
100 points broken down:

SYMMETRY: 4 (shape)
WEIGHT OR SIZE: 4 (shape)
CONDITION AND VIGOR: 10 (shape)
COMB: 5 (shape)
BEAK: 3 (2 for shape, 1 for color)
SKULL & FACE: 4 (3 for shape, 1 for color)
EYES: 4 (2 for shape, 2 for color)
WATTLES: 2 (shape)
EARLOBES: 4 (2 for shape, 2 for color)
*NECK: 6 (1 for shape, 5 for color)
*BACK: 12 (6 for shape, 6 for color)
*TAIL: 8 (4 for shape, 4 for color)
*WINGS: 8 (3 for shape, 5 for color)
*BREAST: 10 (5 for shape, 5 for color)
*BODY & FLUFF: 8 (5 for shape, 3 for color)
LEGS & TOES: 8 (5 for shape, 3 for color)

Don't you have like a, "point card," for each entry, that tells what points you receive, or do not receive? I understand that individuals could/would interpret differently, yes. But, generally speaking .... aren't the standards sufficient for fairness?

I really can hardly wait to go to see a show, myself! I am very interested. I am sure I will see both pets and livestock (any animals kept for use or profit) there ... and should certainly be educational, as well as entertaining!

 

[Pathfinders]

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Never in a million years...

 

[Pathfinders]

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Wow, that's a shot across the bow, for sure.

Actually, my chickens are the one livestock animal on this farm that (sortof) pay their own way. I sell eggs, I sell chicks, I sell started birds. By showing, I can increase the amount I sell my birds for. Locals around me expect to pay $3 for a started pullet in a laying hen breed. I don't sell those sorts of birds, and they're always surprised when I tell them how much I do sell my eggs/chicks/birds for. But it's showing that allows me to do that, and then cover some of my expenses for them (show costs are a whole 'nuther thing.)

My goats and horses, on the other hand, do nothing to pay their own way, and could probably be considered pets in that sort of light. But I don't coddle them either, just care for them properly, as my grandfather taught me.

My house dogs, OTOH, well, spoiled rotten. No question there...

 

[Chris09]

Pathfinders,

Off topic but I had to ask.

What breed is the Blue Merle colored dog? It looks like a young Dane.

Chris

 

[Pathfinders]

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Indeed she is. Ziva is a one year-old Great Dane (uncropped ears, pet only), and McGee is an about 5 month old Rat Terrier. We're not sure of his parentage, as he was dumped at the end of our driveway in October as a teeny tiny pup. But he and Ziva became fast friends, and they are playing now beside me in my office as I type.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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Or the VERY PQ silkie that sold for four figures? And I've seen birds that were not good examples of the breed place over those that were, and no, I am not talking about my birds (although I have seen some of my own placed against each other that left me scratching my head and wondering).

When I show at our state fair (and yes it IS a sanctioned show, and usually has 1000 or more birds) I try to bring a wide assortment of varieties--even when the bird is not a great one. At least a part of the reason for the exhibition is to show birds to the public--not just others in the fancy. I also try to spend time at the show talking to people walking past the cages and looking at the birds--telling them about my birds, and even those of others, and answering questions. At other shows I also occasionally take project birds that really are not ready for competition so that I can discuss them with other breeders. I don't really have expectations of them winning anything, but the feedback I can get from other breeders and the judges is valuable IMO.

 

[cicene mete]

I have read this thread with some interest. I recently attended the Northeast Poultry Congress, and I found the whole "show" thing curious. People create an arbitrary standard of proportions, color, etc. and then they practice selective breeding and killing off of unwanted animals until they have some that they believe match that arbitrary standard. I can see that many people here find this practice rewarding, although it is not for me.

Then there are those who keep poultry for eggs or meat only, either in small farms or in large production facilities.

But the largest growing segment of the poultry keeping population consists of those who keep chickens as pets who also produce eggs. My DW and I started keeping chickens for this purpose a couple of years ago, and we have many friends and family members who are doing the same. Ours are absolutely pets. They will never be in a show, and if they never lay another egg, we will still be happy with them. All of them have names, and we enjoy their individual personalities and their antics. I'm sure many people think we are weird, but the birds are happy and so are we.

All of this is saying that what's bizarre to one person seems perfectly normal to another. My primary concern with any of these practices is animal cruelty. If animals are suffering unnecessarily, as they do in many large factory farms, then I have a problem with it. The same thing holds for selective breeding for shows or keeping as pets. If people are being cruel to their animals, either through ignorance, apathy, or malevolence, then we should all object to the behavior If the birds are happy and well kept, then I don't see why any of us should be so judgmental of everyone else.

Personally, I think those here who don't name their animals or interact with them much are missing out, and many people might think that my thinking of my birds as pets is peculiar, but if were not hurting each other, and were not hurting the animals, then live and let live, I say.

 

[NYREDS]

I believe the reason for shows and "shows" is very simple and rests mostly on one group of people; the judges. The Standard is also partly to blame with its confusing descriptions and horrible examples, but judges themselves are the biggest difference between shows and "shows."

There is no such thing as an impartial judge, they will all have their favorite breeds and preferred attributes that make up those breeds. Double shows are great examples where two equally qualified judges can go though a hall of 1,000 + birds and come up with different class champions. If they all judge according to standard this should not happen as the better birds should be obvious for their lack of faults. I am not saying that all judges would disagree on all birds, but that it does happen and because someone has been ill informed about a certain breed standard and could not fully judge all the birds to their variation from the standard and adequately place the birds accordingly.

If all judges could be as impartial as possible and as ruthless as possible (disqualifying any birds that are not standard breeds and marking down any birds not worthy of merit) we could easily fix the problem of "shows." Also I think that the Standard needs to be better written to clarify any questionable descriptions, especially in color because your idea of light chestnut is probably different then someone else's idea of what that color is. I cannont testify as to the degree in which judges are judged when applying for license, but the more rigorous the better would be my guess.

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To some extent I agree with what you are saying.
A poultry show is essentially a beauty contest & people’s conceptions of beauty differ. For example many people on this site find Silkies attractive but I think they are hideous. That has not kept me from putting deserving Silkies on Champion Row.
Personally I am not fond of those double shows because they do create the feeling that there’s something wrong with the judging when results differ. Part of these differing outcomes may be a result of the subjective element of interpreting the standard. However, when you say “if they all judge according to the Standard this would not happen” you’re leaving a few things out. A bird has maybe a minute to make an impression on a Judge. If the bird is getting ready to lay an egg, take a dump or is tired or distracted it’s time ma come & go.
Perhaps the Standard could be improved by offering clearer descriptions or examples eg: what is a medium back to you might look like a short back to me. Maybe measurements would help. But, for now, the Standard is what it is & we have no choice but to accept the fact that there is some subjectivity involved in the process.
As to the process of becoming a judge it is at least a 2 year process & is fairly rigorous. I will offer you the same suggestion I offer others who are critical of judges. Get in the Apprentice Program & get your license. We can always use more good judges.

These changes would also remove the need for "pet" quality or show quality as only birds that are according to standard would pass ultimately killing off any birds that are below par for either the show room and the breeding coop.

I'm not sure at all what you're trying to say here?​

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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[Sonoran Silkies]

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Nope--there is no "point card," nor are points marked on the coop card. Birds are judged against each other, not against the standard.