There are shows, and then there are shows...

[Katy]

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Just because I don't name my chickens or cattle does not mean I don't interact with them many times on a daily basis or get enjoyment from them.

 

[Professional]

You present a sensible argument, but there are few things which you overlook. Sure, live and let live, I'm all for it, but unless your flock is 50% cocks and 50% hens, or thereabouts, you're as much a part of the problem as these exhibition breeders which you seem to assume all "kill off" unwanted animals. If you've ever ordered birds from a hatchery and did not accept straight run, you've caused the extra males to also be "killed off". It's nice that you're concerned with animal cruelty, but understand that many of these weird pet chicken keepers are far more likely to cause it than most exhibition breeders, whose activities by their very nature encourage a lack of cruelty, if they are to have any hope of succes. Killing or causing harm to their birds, all despite their profession of "love" for the animals, is more common by those who keep them unnaturally, in homes, as individuals devoid of any social interaction with others of their own species, being constantly manhandled and restrained, dressed in foolish clothing or diapers, etc. Those who "free range" their birds all in the name of allowing them to be "happy", are far more responsible for more birds coming to a horrible, torturous death than are most exhibition breeders. My culls are sold to ethnic people who enjoy them for food, rather than buying store bought meat, and many exhibition breeders do the same. All of the animals which I am responsible for producing serve a purpose, and are free from cruelty. How many pet chickens whose lives are spent being hugged by ill informed children can you say the same about? There is also the bigger picture which you fail to see. Although my exhibition activities may not affect you and your poultry keeping activities, in the long run, you and those with the pet chicken mentality serve to harm us by continuing to blur the line between pets and livestock. Already many of our animal control officials, and those who pass animal cruelty laws, do not understand the basic differences in proper care and behavior of livestock vs household pets. Most of you have only the domestic dog and cat, and knowledge of their behavior and care as a point of reference. Before you know it, the bleeding hearts in our society will be requiring livestock to be kept in heated barns, and pampered like so many puppies and kitties. There's also the issue of delayed or reduced emotional maturity associated with many of these people who consider every animal to be a "pet". That can't be good for our future as a society either. So go ahead, live and let live, just be sure you see the big picture, and try to live truly without bias, if you want the other half to offer you the same courtesy.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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To some extent I agree with what you are saying.
A poultry show is essentially a beauty contest & people’s conceptions of beauty differ. For example many people on this site find Silkies attractive but I think they are hideous. That has not kept me from putting deserving Silkies on Champion Row.
Personally I am not fond of those double shows because they do create the feeling that there’s something wrong with the judging when results differ. Part of these differing outcomes may be a result of the subjective element of interpreting the standard. However, when you say “if they all judge according to the Standard this would not happen” you’re leaving a few things out. A bird has maybe a minute to make an impression on a Judge. If the bird is getting ready to lay an egg, take a dump or is tired or distracted it’s time ma come & go.
Perhaps the Standard could be improved by offering clearer descriptions or examples eg: what is a medium back to you might look like a short back to me. Maybe measurements would help. But, for now, the Standard is what it is & we have no choice but to accept the fact that there is some subjectivity involved in the process.
As to the process of becoming a judge it is at least a 2 year process & is fairly rigorous. I will offer you the same suggestion I offer others who are critical of judges. Get in the Apprentice Program & get your license. We can always use more good judges.

I agree wholeheartedly with just about everything you've said here (I do like double shows). After judging I like to talk to the judge about my birds--I recall asking one judge why he placed one of my birds over another of mine--to me they were very, very similar, and I really wanted to know what I was missing. The comment was just about what you said--it was how they were acting and looking at the moment he looked at them, that at a different time he might have placed them differently.​

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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I know. I think it's sad.

I 100%, completely, totally agree. Well, I guess I "recognize" that we are in the minority, more than I necessarily think it is sad per se. If someone wants to think of a chicken as a pet, I suppose that is totally up to them. Truth be told, I have some chickens and ducks that are tame and are treated perhaps a *little* better than some of the others, but I am never going to see them on the level of one of my dogs. It just isn't going to happen. I was raised on a farm and we were taught very early on in life that there are pets and there is livestock. We always treated the livestock well and took proper care of them, but I am not going to have them living in the house with me, sleeping in my bedroom in a diaper. Not likely to happen, unless I did purely as an experiment. To each their own I guess. The animals should all be treated respectively and taken care of properly, but not treating them like children is not neglect.

Well, my great-grandmother was raised on a farm, and was a farmwife until she went to live with my grandparents in her old age. SHE had a pair of pet chickens who lived in her kitchen, roosted at night on top of her cupboards; she kept an immaculate house according to my aunt. This was 90+ years ago. She had chickens that were livestock and this pair who were pets.

 

[Quadog]

I will weigh in briefly...

I believe the winner of any contest is entitled to 1st place rights. Best in show is exactly that, not to mean best in the world or perfect example.
The first horse across the finish line wins the race even if there is a faster horse in the stall.

As far as pets, any animal that you enjoy the company of can be your pet.


Just my 2 cents.

 

[cicene mete]

Well, "professional," I didn't mean to hit a nerve, and I'm not quite sure why I did. I'm pretty sure I was clear that we should all be concerned about animal cruelty whether perpetrated by those who practice "selective breeding for shows or keeping as pets." I never said that selective breeding was necessarily cruel, nor did I say the same about breeding for meat, so I'm not quite sure why you took offense. What I said was that we should be concerned about those who are cruel to their animals "either through ignorance, apathy, or malevolence." This standard can apply to farmers, pet keepers, or show breeders.

As for your other concern, (something that heated barns, bleeding hearts, and hugging children) I just haven't seen any evidence of a problem. My neighbors kids love the chickens, and they all handle them (with gentleness and care for the birds and for their own health through rigorous handwashing). Now, the chickens come running up to play with the kids. They are not afraid of the children, and I believe the interaction has made them easier to work with overall.

Second, my chickens are visited annually by two different branches of animal control officers: our local animal control, and the state NPIP program. So far, no one has evinced any secret plot to require heated barns.

Third, all animals, whether you consider them "pets" or "livestock" deserve to be treated with a certain level of care and compassion. I'm sure you agree with me on this. We have all seen some of the conditions of some factory settings, and it's hard to argue that those settings constitute anything but cruelty.

Fourth, I wouldn't keep my birds inside, as I believe they are happiest when in a flock with their "own kind." But I'm not sure I could make an argument that this constitutes animal cruelty. Conversely, chickens seems happiest when they free range. Because of my emotional attachment to my flock, I do not let my free range, because I do not want to risk the losses, but I know firsthand how happy and stimulated free range birds seem to be, and I also know that the eggs of free range birds are more healthful, so I'm not sure I could argue that those who free range are practicing animal cruelty either.

As for delayed emotional maturity by those who think of every animal as a pet, I have to say that I see your point a bit. We all know what happened with the woman who thought she could keep a full-grown male chimpanzee as a pet. At the same time, I would argue that those who believe that every animal is simply property also fail to show emotional maturity and fail to see the big picture.

 

[McSpin]

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I was beginning to feel guilty that I don't give names to my livestock. Nice to see I'm not alone. And yes, they are livestock and I treat them as such. It doesn't mean I don't take good care of them. I believe my care is excellent. However, everyone of them is eligible to be on the menu if it suits me.

 

[Chris09]

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I was beginning to feel guilty that I don't give names to my livestock. Nice to see I'm not alone. And yes, they are livestock and I treat them as such. It doesn't mean I don't take good care of them. I believe my care is excellent. However, everyone of them is eligible to be on the menu if it suits me.

No you not the only one..

My livestock don't get named. Well the wife does come up with names to put on the pedigrees for the dairy goats but that is about it...

Chris

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

I rarely name them either. Some good examples are for the meat birds- KFC, thigh, roast, sunday night, names like that. Then some others with personality get names like Coco because of the noise, Diablo because he was a turd, Dee El Dubya or just Dubya for short, was the dun laced wyandotte rooster, we wrote DLW on the eggs from his pen so he got that name. Most of the time its just roosters.

 

[CityChicker]

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I 100%, completely, totally agree. Well, I guess I "recognize" that we are in the minority, more than I necessarily think it is sad per se. If someone wants to think of a chicken as a pet, I suppose that is totally up to them. Truth be told, I have some chickens and ducks that are tame and are treated perhaps a *little* better than some of the others, but I am never going to see them on the level of one of my dogs. It just isn't going to happen. I was raised on a farm and we were taught very early on in life that there are pets and there is livestock. We always treated the livestock well and took proper care of them, but I am not going to have them living in the house with me, sleeping in my bedroom in a diaper. Not likely to happen, unless I did purely as an experiment. To each their own I guess. The animals should all be treated respectively and taken care of properly, but not treating them like children is not neglect.

Well, my great-grandmother was raised on a farm, and was a farmwife until she went to live with my grandparents in her old age. SHE had a pair of pet chickens who lived in her kitchen, roosted at night on top of her cupboards; she kept an immaculate house according to my aunt. This was 90+ years ago. She had chickens that were livestock and this pair who were pets.

...and your point would be what? Since your grandmother was raised on a farm and also had pet chickens that lived in the house, are we to presume that you think that is typical of people that have grown up on farms? It isn't. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen as obviously it does. What exactly are you disagreeing with? All I am saying is the majority of people that have come from a farming background do not see chickens on the same level as household pets (unlike some people that have no experience with livestock and get a few chickens as pets or a source of backyard eggs). Do you not agree with this simply because your grandmother had pet chickens? If so, that is rather illogical.