To cull or not to cull? In need of advice.

[Barredrock92]

Hi, fairly new chick owner here. I have an established flock of 3. In February I decided to expand my flock with some chicks. I got two from a farm, not a hatchery. This is the worst luck with chicks I’ve ever had. First one had a respiratory infection, it was treated, and recovered. ( I now know that she is a carrier for life...I didn’t know that a month ago) Then the other died several weeks later due to sour crop. After the she passed I got two more chicks from a real hatchery, (they were four weeks old when I got them).It’s been a month and now one of the younger chicks has the same infection (runny nose, watery eyes, sneezing) that the other did two months prior.We’ve been treating with probiotics, ACV, electrolytes etc. I’ve eliminated environmental factors as possible causes. Im not sure where they got the infection, if perhaps the first set of chicks had it, and passed it to the new chicks, or if my establish hens had it and I transferred it to the young chicks. However my hens have never been symptomatic of anything. I don’t know if I should cull and start over in a few months, or continue treating until all the chicks are well and they can join my adult hens. I don’t want to cull, but I have to protect my older gals. But if they’re the ones that gave the chicks the infection in the first place, it’s a moot point to start over, as any new birds I bring in will be at risk.

I am overwhelmed and need help. Thanks.

 

[nightowl223]

Hi, fairly new chick owner here. I have an established flock of 3. In February I decided to expand my flock with some chicks. I got two from a farm, not a hatchery. This is the worst luck with chicks I’ve ever had. First one had a respiratory infection, it was treated, and recovered. ( I now know that she is a carrier for life...I didn’t know that a month ago) Then the other died several weeks later due to sour crop. After the she passed I got two more chicks from a real hatchery, (they were four weeks old when I got them).It’s been a month and now one of the younger chicks has the same infection (runny nose, watery eyes, sneezing) that the other did two months prior.We’ve been treating with probiotics, ACV, electrolytes etc. I’ve eliminated environmental factors as possible causes. Im not sure where they got the infection, if perhaps the first set of chicks had it, and passed it to the new chicks, or if my establish hens had it and I transferred it to the young chicks. However my hens have never been symptomatic of anything. I don’t know if I should cull and start over in a few months, or continue treating until all the chicks are well and they can join my adult hens. I don’t want to cull, but I have to protect my older gals. But if they’re the ones that gave the chicks the infection in the first place, it’s a moot point to start over, as any new birds I bring in will be at risk.

I am overwhelmed and need help. Thanks.

One other thing I'd like to point out is that, whether or not you get chicks from a "real hatchery" or not has, I'm pretty sure, very little to do with what's going on. Aside from the fact that "real hatcheries" come in two types (BIG outfits like Cackle, and smaller farms that hatch and sell chicks of certain, more specific breeds), and the big guys seldom keep chicks over a week old to sell, JUST the trip home from purchasing chicks can have them pick up something. You usually have better luck with getting chicks from established breeders of specific breeds, rather than getting them from the large hatcheries, just because many of them breed for immunity to the common diseases in the area they come from.

However, here's the main problem with trying to blame whoever you got them from, no matter whether it's a big hatchery, a breeder, or a farm selling their own hatched babies: You have to realize that most diseases that chickens can get are endemic, everywhere, in the soil, and air, and every wild flock of birds that flies over any place you walk can leave enough germs on your shoes as you walk across a parking lot for you to bring home someting that can get birds sick. There is virtually NO way to prevent your flock from getting ANYTHING, ever, unless they are raised and live inisde a locked facility with no access to the outside world, period - and that's no life for a chicken, IMO.

 

[nightowl223]

At what age were your first hens when you got them? They could be carriers, or they could have developed or natural immunity to whatever your little ones got. It's really hard to tell.

 

[Granny Hatchet]

 

[danceswithronin]

I personally would not put sick chickens in with my established flock if it is a respiratory virus that is potentially reoccurring throughout the bird's life cycle. That is just asking for problems down the line, especially if it's contagious to boot.

I'd personally cull now while my emotional attachment is fairly low, and start over with a new batch of chicks in a few months after doing a thorough cleaning of the coop/brooder and inspecting your older hens carefully for any symptom of illness, no matter how minor. Then when you do get new chicks, I would be hyperaware of biosecurity around them and be very good about not exposing your chicks to anything from the established coop to rule out the chance of cross-contamination.

The way I see it, chicks have a high hatch rate to offset a high mortality rate, and any chick that got ill in the wild would likely not survive. I'd rather cull and get new chicks and avoid exposing my flock to illness than put the sick chicks in and risk exposing them all to something that could potentially bring down the entire group.

A major consideration of this too is that if you do introduce reexisting illness into your flock, it's not like a dog or a cat - you'll get almost no easy veterinary backup without pretty heavy expense, expense that far outweighs the economic worth of the bird. So if you have an epidemic in the flock, you'll be doing most of the nursing and vetwork yourself.

 

[nightowl223]

Cutting to the chase by indulging in a little psychobabble:

You are overwhelmed because of the conflict between your subconscious mind and your conscious mind. The soul = who you are = the subconscious knows what it wants (or doesn't want) "I don't want to cull"......The conscious mind is the one all about logic and reasoning, but you gave it a mind bender of an equation to compute, too many variables, and it's getting overheated. The subconscious mind though, is the one with psychic abilities and already knows what's going on. What's going on? As @nightowl223 already stated it : The world is full of viruses, bacteria, spores, parasites and their eggs and it's impossible to protect anyone, unless you put them in a bubble.

May I compliment you on your excellent work, nightowl223.

Thanks for the compliment. I've been around for a few rodeos, so to speak. And I really do think that whatever the chicks died of has little or nothing to do with the adult flock she has. Chicks just take time to develop an immune system. Those hatched under Mama hens get their immunity buildup beginning before they ever actually hatch. Those hatched in an incubator are a little slower to develop immune systems, though, and traveling with them can allow them to come in contact with something their little immune systems aren't ready for.

For that matter, some adult birds who are immune to any little germ where they grew up can be sold and moved somewhere where the germs around them are nothing their immune systems have ever seen, and they can get sick. And it may be nothing dangerous, no Aspergilliosis (sp?) or Coryza or Newcastle or Pullorum or any other of the really drastic diseases. It may be the chicken version of the common cold. Or it may not. Without actual tests done on a dead chicken, you really don't know.

Now, a bit about quarantine. [not directed at you, @cottagecheese, mainly for the OP]

Any time you bring new birds to your place, you need to quarantine them for at minimum of a month. That means keeping them at least 500 feet from the existing flock, or keeping them inside, and NEVER handle the new birds before you tend to your existing flock, and then wash up and change clothes after you tend the new flock before you go back to your existing flock. The more distance between them, the better. Once your new birds have been exposed to whatever potential germs are on your own property, and have not come down with anything, then you can be sure you can combine the two flocks safely.

The last thing you want to do is lose your entire existing flock because the new birds are carriers for something. If they are carriers, the shock of being moved almost ALWAYS causes a hidden carrier disease to flare back up. If they aren't, you still learn whether they are immune to whatever germs might be on your own property. And personally, I breed for immunity. If anyone gets the least bit sniffly, they don't get to have babies around here. *shrug* Them's the rules. We used to have much stronger, more immune breeds than they seem to be now, because they used to breed for immunity. My opinion, of course, and there are other opinions out there, but that's what makes life interesting.

 

[nightowl223]

I wouldn't suggest culling anyone until a few other possibilities are gone through, and a few more questions are asked and answered - and whether or not a vet is around to help isn't really one of them.

 

[Ebony Rose]

First one had a respiratory infection, it was treated, and recovered. ( I now know that she is a carrier for life...I didn’t know that a month ago)

Have you already introduced this original sick then healthy chick to your adults? If so, they've been exposed, so they too would be carriers. So the question goes deeper than cull the sick chick, and goes deeper than cull the 'carrier for life' chick. If your adult hens have been exposed (and are now carriers, and you don't want to cull them), you can still keep your flock; as long as you're prepared to deal with respiratory issues in your flock as they age, particularly when they're stressed, and when you introduce new birds to your flock. Knowing you have a contagious respiratory illness in your flock isn't the end of the world, but it will make things more difficult for you. Oh and... are you sure that the respiratory illness in the first chick was of the 'carrier for life' variety of illnesses? I mean, you can get a sick bird... treat it, and that's it, it's over... not a carrier... for some types of illness. Do you know for certain that whatever she had is contagious still?

 

[nightowl223]

No, the original flock may NOT be carriers of any disease, even if the chicks were around them. They may simply be IMMUNE to the particular disease the chicks have. It's much like some people catch every cold virus that comes along, and others never, or very seldom, catch any of the cold viruses they are ever exposed to. There is a HUGE difference between being a carrier and being immune, and starting to talk about needing closed flocks or having any other bird that is brought in get sick is WAY premature here.

I want to be certain the difference is understood here, as some parts of the previous comments seem to have spoken like someone there is or was a permanent carrier of something terrible. That simply may not be the case.

 

[nightowl223]

They were a week old when we got them. We acquired an older hen from a different flock back in December, she was put in quarantine for a month before joining the other two.

So they grew up with anything that might be there. I highly doubt they are carriers of anything, then, as I believe you said they have never shown any symptoms of anything. As for the little ones getting sick and dying, there are so many variables that could cause it, it's really hard to pick one - even a wrong heat lamp bulb for their heat can sicken and kill little ones.

Nor can you entirely blame the source for the ill chicks, either, as they may have been just fine when they left their birthplace. And just by traveling with them to your home, they could be exposed to something. If someone with a sick flock goes to the same store you went to, and didn't practice good biosecurity, like wearing the same shoes they tend their chickens in, you could bring back something unpleasant or even dangerous.

Really, the only thing I would do (as I don't treat illness with antibiotics, just wounds) is give them a vitamin/electrolyte booster like Durvet sells (water soluble, they have a measuring cup with the bottle, 1 cup per gallon), and add ACV (with mother) and honey as well, 1 filling/day the vitamins, the next filling/day the ACV & honey, and add probitics to their water with the vitamins (not with the vinegar - and Durvet sells the probiotics, too), all to boost their immune systems. Then see who lives and who doesn't. *shrug*

A little heartless? Maybe. But I don't breed those with weak immune systems. I breed for immunity. And if you decide to get more little ones, try to stop at as few places as possible while traveling with them. And I always give my little ones that vitamins one day/ACV & honey the next, whether I hatch them myself or whether I buy them elsewhere, for the first few weeks. I always watch to make sure they are drinking it, though, as some seem to not like the treated water, and if that's happening, I go at least one day without anything in the water in between one day of the first mix, then clear water, then the next mix.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.