Trying to contain Marek's and protect 6 week and 2 week old chicks

[Kiki]

My vet has parents as farmers, she has a huge interest in livestock over pets, she is like a wizard with my animals, and she will house call for my maremma lsg dog/pup. She adores chooks, sheep, goats, pigs, you name it. She is young vibrant, always training herself to any new research available and is keen to involve the animal owners ideas when they are appropriate. I dont know how I'd get by without her. I've been using the same vet practice now for more than 25 years and their team has always been excellent. Their young vets are so so well trained and just love the animals they respond to and treat.

This is fabulous!

 

[ReallyACL]

This is fabulous!

I know, I've seen how hard it is to find a good vet that will educate themselves on birds reading other peoples posts. A good vet is worth their bill at the end of the day.

 

[Kiki]

@EggSighted4Life I think you mentioned something about transmission time lines here??? I may be wrong but...

I am currently reading this and think you might be interested in reading it too.


"MD pathogenesis has four phases in the susceptible birds; an early cytolytic phase within 2–7 days post-infection (dpi) which delineates as semi productive lytic viral replication in lymphocytes. This is followed by a latency phase that occurs between 7 and 10 dpi in CD4+ T cell subset that result in systemic viral dissemination. Cutaneous viral infection can occurs as early as 4 dpi and eventually results in fully productive viral replication and shedding [13]. MDV reactivation in CD4+ T cells initiates a late cytolytic and immunosuppressive phase starting around 18 dpi. Finally a proliferative phase around 28 dpi [14, 15] is characterized by formation of visceral tumours that originate from CD4+ T cells lymphoma. There is no transmission from chicken to eggs (vertical transmission) but the birds are usually infected in early stage after hatching (horizontal transmission)."

Quoted from:
https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13567-016-0404-3

 

[ReallyACL]

@EggSighted4Life I think you mentioned something about transmission time lines here??? I may be wrong but...

I am currently reading this and think you might be interested in reading it too.


"MD pathogenesis has four phases in the susceptible birds; an early cytolytic phase within 2–7 days post-infection (dpi) which delineates as semi productive lytic viral replication in lymphocytes. This is followed by a latency phase that occurs between 7 and 10 dpi in CD4+ T cell subset that result in systemic viral dissemination. Cutaneous viral infection can occurs as early as 4 dpi and eventually results in fully productive viral replication and shedding [13]. MDV reactivation in CD4+ T cells initiates a late cytolytic and immunosuppressive phase starting around 18 dpi. Finally a proliferative phase around 28 dpi [14, 15] is characterized by formation of visceral tumours that originate from CD4+ T cells lymphoma. There is no transmission from chicken to eggs (vertical transmission) but the birds are usually infected in early stage after hatching (horizontal transmission)."

Quoted from:
https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13567-016-0404-3

It's possible my one and only symptomatic bird displayed because she's around 6-7 years old now. She is a freak of nature to begin with as she's an ex bat and should not have survived past three or four years to begin with, her 9 friends didnt last two years after they came here, they were the sadest sick and sorry lot I've ever seen and were always on drugs of some kind on and off, I never used one single egg from them. I will never get store brought eggs ever after having those beautiful girls. She only ever got ocular symptoms which remaine, the other adult birds I have with her were all vaccinated, I know that doesnt mean they cant get mareks, but might explain why they never developed symptoms, they are younger and more robust as well.

None of my chicks were vaccinated but I've never had a symptom, they are not in close contact at all and I'm careful and tidy, I think I've just been lucky. The symptomatic bird often gets respiratory symptoms, she hasnt laid in years (well before mareks) none of the others ever catch her death rattle. Every rattle she gets penicillin sub cut under her wing ever three days for nine days and she's clear again for a couple more months. I should just euthanize her but she's such a character and she's happy in herself, bossy and they others are at no greater risk with her around than if she wasnt.

 

[microchick]

I euthanized my last hen with Ocular Marek's last week. She was also the first one to develop grey eye although at the time I thought she had sustained an injury. She was brooding chicks at the time and looking back, each and every chick from that hatching succumbed to Marek's disease.

Aguilla did well for those two years. Zero vision in the effected eye but good vision in the other. She was a bit nervous due to her blindness but didn't take any crap off of the other chickens. She was a joy to have around and I thought she was going to live out a normal BO life until I found her stretched out on her side in a nesting box last Wednesday. Taking her out of the box she was extremely hot and completely blind not reacting to any efforts to get her to blink. I tried to cool her down and it was while I was checking her over that I began to suspect that she had stroked. One wing was hanging, she kept rolling onto her left side and she was now blind in her left eye as well as her right. The only sound she could make was a honking 'awwk' noise. All I could do was comfort her and then put her down.

Marek's has hit my flock hard. I've lost over 20 birds to date in the year + that I have come to realize that it is in my flock. Don't know where it came from but I suspect wild birds bringing it in from one of the local farms. Like mentioned, buying your birds from an NPIP breeder doesn't guarantee anything. My flock is proof of that. No adult birds added to the flock, only juveniles purchased from the same breeder. I was assured that the birds were resistant to Marek's and I didn't have anything to worry about.

Famous last words. I've been hatching chicks from eggs purchased from local Amish farms lately. These birds seem to be hardier than the Buff O's and Welsummers I've been dealing with for the past three years. It makes me wonder if these birds do have true resistance to whatever strain of the disease that is on our property.

My remaining Buff O's and Wellys are holding their own at the moment. Some are underweight, some are normal weight. Keeping meat on them has been a challenge. If I feed them higher protein feed, they pork up. I lost a BO hen this past November to a prolapse causing me to change their feed to a lower protein and deal with them being thinner. I know they are all living on borrowed time. I do have the occasional sudden decline and death in my 7-9 week old bantam crosses which are the eggs hatched from the Amish farms, but in comparison to my BO and Welly flock, the losses are less. Last year this time I had 23 standard sized hens. Now I have 13. Out of 40 Bantam crosses I've had 4 deaths.

Am I going to vaccinate? No but I have brought in 7 vaccinated OEGB chicks that have made it to 1 year of age and 5 are now pushing 4 months. Knock on wood, so far so good with them. I hatched 4 eggs abandoned by one of my 'Amish' hens and one of them did die mysteriously at 9 weeks. I've only had one juvenile that I culled with true scissor paralysis. It was 7 weeks old.

Marek's is an insidious killer of both chickens and dreams. I wish the folks doing all the research would start considering the small flock owners as well as the commercial.

 

[ReallyACL]

I euthanized my last hen with Ocular Marek's last week. She was also the first one to develop grey eye although at the time I thought she had sustained an injury. She was brooding chicks at the time and looking back, each and every chick from that hatching succumbed to Marek's disease.

Aguilla did well for those two years. Zero vision in the effected eye but good vision in the other. She was a bit nervous due to her blindness but didn't take any crap off of the other chickens. She was a joy to have around and I thought she was going to live out a normal BO life until I found her stretched out on her side in a nesting box last Wednesday. Taking her out of the box she was extremely hot and completely blind not reacting to any efforts to get her to blink. I tried to cool her down and it was while I was checking her over that I began to suspect that she had stroked. One wing was hanging, she kept rolling onto her left side and she was now blind in her left eye as well as her right. The only sound she could make was a honking 'awwk' noise. All I could do was comfort her and then put her down.

Marek's has hit my flock hard. I've lost over 20 birds to date in the year + that I have come to realize that it is in my flock. Don't know where it came from but I suspect wild birds bringing it in from one of the local farms. Like mentioned, buying your birds from an NPIP breeder doesn't guarantee anything. My flock is proof of that. No adult birds added to the flock, only juveniles purchased from the same breeder. I was assured that the birds were resistant to Marek's and I didn't have anything to worry about.

Famous last words. I've been hatching chicks from eggs purchased from local Amish farms lately. These birds seem to be hardier than the Buff O's and Welsummers I've been dealing with for the past three years. It makes me wonder if these birds do have true resistance to whatever strain of the disease that is on our property.

My remaining Buff O's and Wellys are holding their own at the moment. Some are underweight, some are normal weight. Keeping meat on them has been a challenge. If I feed them higher protein feed, they pork up. I lost a BO hen this past November to a prolapse causing me to change their feed to a lower protein and deal with them being thinner. I know they are all living on borrowed time. I do have the occasional sudden decline and death in my 7-9 week old bantam crosses which are the eggs hatched from the Amish farms, but in comparison to my BO and Welly flock, the losses are less. Last year this time I had 23 standard sized hens. Now I have 13. Out of 40 Bantam crosses I've had 4 deaths.

Am I going to vaccinate? No but I have brought in 7 vaccinated OEGB chicks that have made it to 1 year of age and 5 are now pushing 4 months. Knock on wood, so far so good with them. I hatched 4 eggs abandoned by one of my 'Amish' hens and one of them did die mysteriously at 9 weeks. I've only had one juvenile that I culled with true scissor paralysis. It was 7 weeks old.

Marek's is an insidious killer of both chickens and dreams. I wish the folks doing all the research would start considering the small flock owners as well as the commercial.

From everything Iv'e read it's a shocking disease if it takes hold and it's a strong strain. I think my only saving grace was that my eggs were incubated and not hen hatched, all my chicks had been well and truely isolated from my hens when I realised my hens had it. I think it was made a great deal simple also due to only having a very small number of hens, I had 8 at the time with one in isolation, 6 now. The chicks are 6 months old and 5.5 months old, 12 weeks old and 8 weeks old (my very last on the cusp of winter hatch that are still under lights). I'll not allow any of the young ones anywhere near the old girls or near the old girls range, all my young ones are in electric runs, wired roofs and two coups are fully roofed even in the run. One day well after my old girls are long gone I might have hens around the house in the house coup again, but for now they reside out in the pasture in their coups and runs along side the horses.

It's hard to manage something like mareks due to the wild bird factor, natural selection seems a good road to go, I'm certain some birds are naturally resistant, it just seems logical that would be the case.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

My flock is proof of that. No adult birds added to the flock, only juveniles purchased from the same breeder

IMO, juveniles are worse carriers than adult birds... they haven't had hormones kick in yet to TEST their resistance. I would never ever buy juvenile bird that has been to pasture. Really I could give a rats patootie about Marek's and worry more about respiratory disease entering my flock.... which by the way, I NO longer believe EVERY sneeze equals disease! I have seen too many birds get something to trigger the sneezing action to show me that they DO have a trigger just like humans when they get a little tickle up their nose. That get's resolves quickly. Whether or not they have pollen receptors or things that cause allergies, I don't know. Suggest caution... I always will! But I will try NOT to be fear monger over every single oddity any longer.

There was a specific gene identified that DOES give resistance to Marek's.

Since I was sure the two chicks I culled had Marek's... I didn't get necropsy. Haven't had a single incident since then. (more than a year and hundred chicks raised since then) LOT's of birds have gone... with disclosure that while I DO breed and select for resistance... there are NO guarantees. Vaccinated birds still not welcome here.... EVER. No reports back of ANY loss or suspected Marek's... while some people panic and never call me again even for incubator chicks, I am OK with that. We all do what is right for us.

I don't know HOW much protein was being fed to be considered a factor in the prolapse of a BO... but to me that is genetic and I wouldn't skimp and make all my birds less than just cuz one fat hen (with genetic issues) couldn't push out an egg or poop... But I realize we all have a different perspective according to our experiences. I have fed 20% protein to all of my birds for a few years now from hatch to freezer. The ONLY prolapse I have had was in a single Silkie... Thing is sometimes the egg is just too big... and they prolapsed instead of binding. I did also have a binding incident in a Swedish Flower hen returning to lay after being broody broke, even though I don't supplement lighting and they aren't a breed known for prolific laying and problems. Stuff happens.

If I do purchase chicks... ONLY from the incubator... and very likely, even then... I rather purchase a whole bunch of hatchery quality chicks and choose the best too keep.

IF dipping eggs in a peroxide solution works... I would presume it to be for things that are bacterial NOT viral... but I'm sure that is an area I still have lots of learning to do. I really don't figure cleaning eggs has ANY relevance to Marek's... since it says it cannot be passed to the egg.

Sorry for the broken dreams you have experienced. Hope new ones fill the void left.

 

[microchick]

I feed my flock Game Bird Finisher that the local farmer's Co-op produces. 22 percent protein with oyster shell on the side. Chicks get chick starter or the 27% protein Game Bird Starter.

What was happening is that my thinner birds were gaining weight and holding it with the higher protein feed but my hens with the desirable keel bone ratio gained weight and looked like little feathered bowling balls with feet. After having a hen die of prolapse and reading more about it, heavy layers like Buff Orpingtons have a higher chance of prolapse if they have a high ratio of body fat.

Sometimes I buy my feed from a local Amish feed store and talked to the owner about putting my hens on a diet. What he suggested I scoffed at it at first. He suggested I add hog pellets to their feed. That was what the Amish farmers did. When I got over the "Oh he has to be kidding!" knee jerk reaction, I did some research and discovered that the two feeds were very similar. The hog pellets were also low in protein and had copper as an additive. Copper is great when it comes to fighting some infections, mainly fungal infections., which are something that birds carrying the Marek's virus are prone to with their damaged immune system.

So I tried it and my birds are all doing well. The overweight ones are carrying less fat. The thin ones are still thin but not any thinner and I haven't had a sneeze or cough out of any of them for ages. They seem to like the pellets that are mixed in with the Finisher feed and can eat whichever feed they want.

Trust me. To keep my flock as healthy as possible I'd paint myself purple, stand on a hill and swing a dead cat over my head if it would help.

 

[Kiki]

Trust me. To keep my flock as healthy as possible I'd paint myself purple, stand on a hill and swing a dead cat over my head if it would help.

In a bikini!

 

[ReallyACL]

In a bikini!

Wouldnt we all LOL.

The reason I peroxide dip my eggs is because there is some science on it. One, any dander or contamination on the shell that will end up in the incubatior is washed off and steralised. Two, there is very good evidence it "oxygenates" the egg to a higher degree and encourages much better and more extensive egg veins to develop. The research has shown in controlled lab experiments better hatch rates, stronger chicks and the absence of a number of diseases and bacteriums. I've tried it once and my rate was never so high as it was that hatch, and the chicks were and are the most robust I hatched to date. I will always peroxide dip now.