(UPDATE!!) Red not getting better * PSU Replied!

[chkn]

There's a full pour on dose on this page:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2411612


I thought his BlackSheepCardigan's input was pretty interesting on the same page about mass die offs:

"You cannot use injectable ivermectin in water. It's in a solution of glycol and does not dissolve in water. It also doesn't work super well on chicken internal worms. Great for lice and mites.

There is no such thing as 5% ivermectin unless you found it specially compounded somewhere. Ivomec pour-on is 0.5% ivermectin, which I guess is what's being referred to, but do not go looking for (and if you find it do not buy) 5% ivermectin.

Honestly, I do not know why Wazine is considered a good first wormer except that maybe it's so easily available and says chicken on the front. Piperazine has a very long withdrawal time and can produce nasty neurological side effects if humans or mammals ingest too much. Not something you want to keep under your kitchen sink, for sure.

You can use albendazole, 10-20 mg/kg (between a quarter and a half a ml per five pounds if you buy brand-name Valbazen), as a sole wormer. No need to use wazine first and it's safe for humans and other animals if they accidentally ingest it.

You can use fenbendazole, 10-20 mg/kg (between a tenth and a fifth of a ml per five pounds if you buy brand-name Safeguard goat) as a sole wormer.

You can use pyrantel pamoate, 10-20 mg/kg (get the dog liquid, which is marketed as Strongid, Nemex, and a bunch of others, and use between 1x and 2x the dog dose) as a first wormer; it removes roundworms only and is very gentle. Follow up with one of the others.

I don't know how true the theory of harmful die-off is, to be honest. It happens in heartworm in dogs when the arsenic treatment is given - that's real - but gut worms don't behave the same way. When Merial researches ivermectin to see if it works on cows they don't gently worm with something first. They stuff the cows with a huge worm load and then blast them with ivermectin. The cows don't die, they just get better. When you look at the research establishing the dosage of the drugs above, they're not using Wazine first. They just dose the birds and expect them to do well. None of the wormers on the market today actually kill worms; they paralyze them or interfere with their metabolism and the worms die off from starvation and paralysis. So no wormer is going to produce the instantaneous and massive die-off that supposedly chokes digestion. I wouldn't worry too much about that, but if you want to be super safe start with pyrantel."


I guess if it were me I'd go a head and do it. Wazine is not that strong anyway and you need to get your guy better.

 

[PAchickenlover]

Ok so if we want a slower die off wouldn't it be ok for me to put may be 2 drops on her now then wait a couple of days then do it again? I couldn't think of Wazine when I was at the store today. I have a dog wormer here and I had given her about 1/2cc a week ago (I forgot to mention that earlier, sorry). That medacine consisted of 250mg Piperazine base as Piperazine Citrate, per each tsp (5ml). Did I not give her enough of that to get rid of the large round worms?
Oh and by the way THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR RESPONDING!!!

I just had to through that in. Ok so anyways this is the first time I have had to deal with worming chickens so bear with me please..(like that isn't obvious

) So, what do I do now? Especially after I managed to remember giving her the other stuff? Should I go ahead with the Ivermectin? Or do I need to give her more of the other stuff that is for dogs?

I know, I know, questions, questions, questions.... I have to learn somehow...

Thanks

 

[chkn]

Oh you already gave her some wormer? Go ahead with the Ivermectin, yeah. I don't know what size range your bird falls in but there's a more detailed range on the last link I posted. I give my RIR hens 6-7 drops.

 

[chkn]

Oh your welcome. BTW, I was scared to death to when I first did it. I went round and round on it and then I finally did it! Just do it!!!

 

[PAchickenlover]

ok thank you very much! I must be such a pain but I am trying to do the best I can for her. Thank you for bearing with me!
She is not doing any better today. I am afraid that I am going to loose her! She kind of flops around her cage.

But I will keep trying to the end! I'm not going to give up unless you guys think this is torchuring her and its not fair to keep trying? I don't know what to do otherwise for her. I love her very much but I dont want her suffering more than she has to..

 

[chkn]

Man, I reviewed symptoms and realize you've been going at this for something like twelve days now. I haven't reread the whole thing just the beginning (although it's not the first time). Looking at the symptoms again you describe, the problem started with the respiratory distress and then progressed to the dark splotches on the legs. The dark splotches wouldn't be out of line in a compromised respiratory system.

Then I thought about the antibiotic you are using. Are you still using Penicillin because I'm thinking this isn't the right antibiotic for the job. I'm getting (using the search feature here in comparisons of Tylan vs. Penicillin) that Tylan is the antibiotic used for respiratory infections whereas Penicillin is for other types of bodily infections. It seems to me that you need to use an antibiotic that will take care of the respiratory problem first. The darkening blotches are secondary and you can't fix that until you fix the primary cause.

So now I think you need Tylan fast, preferrably the injectible. Have you tried Tylan yet? Address this first.

If she's still eating, feed her some cat food if you haven't already because that will give her some strength.

 

[chkn]

BTW, was there any improvement when you wormed her a week ago?

 

[chkn]

Did you give her the Ivermectin? I was debating whether it was worth it at this point until I remembered that there are some internal and external parasites that will invade the lungs. You already did the Wazine so you have the green light now.

 

[chkn]

I went back and you reported that there was significant improvement with the first round of wormer. All the more reason to follow through on the Ivermectin.

 

[jjthink]

Checking in on your patient PA. Given how many days this has been bad, honestly I think she may need a vet to get through this. You are so caring and trying hard but - - - flopping around - not good

As to Ivermection pour on dose - I am racing again this morning for work so can't read everyone's posts to see if you already have the info you were looking for - but it depends (as you likely know) on the weight of the bird. 1/4cc (can get scaled syringe from any pharmacist or vet) for 5.5 pound bird droppered onto their skin between their shoulder blades..... It's usually a one dose thing.

JJ