URGENT-- frozen feet!

[Dona Worry]

Is there any of the oozing or rotting smell coming from the feet? With the scales it’s really hard to see exactly what’s going on with the tissue underneath. Aside from the broken blisters, that is.

Yes. But it's not as strong as I expected, honestly.
The spot of blood actually gives me a little hope-- if there was NO blood flow, it wouldn't bleed, right?

 

[Bogtown Chick]

Keep it clean as you can. Antibiotic ointment too. This is for the broken blisters. Ulceration. Once that’s done then there’s either a barrier of skin or eschar. Usually...

 

[fur-mum]

No it's just dead tissue. Gangrene is a bacteria that spreads into healthy tissue pretty quickly and smells like death as it destroys tissue. It also will ooze a green pus I believe.

The tissue on frost bitten toes is similar to when you band a male animal to castrate it. The blood supply is cut off and the tissue dies, and is limited, it doesn't spread. Incorrect banding can cause gangrene, which results in severe swelling and pus, as well as that smell. So two different things.

Old hen is correct. Gangrene is a severe infection, and is very dangerous. It smells very sickly sweet like rot. The black and falling off is not necessarily gangrene. If you keep it clean and it doesn't feel like it's getting hot or see the sepsis setting it, gangrene shouldn't* be an issue. It would require an open wound, which I know that she has now, but didn't seem to on the original pics.
Just my two cents as a lab nerd. I think you're doing an amazing job!

 

[fur-mum]

And yes, if there was no blood flow, there'd be no bleeding. That is hopeful.

 

[Kris5902]

Yes, it’s hard to say from just pictures and descriptions exactly what’s going on from the other end of the internet... @Dona Worry , you’ve got the best perspective on things and how her treatments are going... doesn’t really sound like you’ve got a gangrene (smells like a combo of rotting peaches and decomp to me) situation going on, thankfully. And yes, mine do the step in the poop thing too... So keeping things clean and dry is a big struggle with chickens! I think you’re doing a great job and your girls are super lucky to have you!

 

[Dona Worry]

We have some walking!

 

[Kris5902]

Mealworm motivation much?

 

[BY Bob]

I am going to jump in on the gangrene question. As someone with over 30 years experience as a microbiologist including many in hospitals, maybe I can help clear up any confusion.

Just to clear this up there are two types of gangrene, dry and wet. In humans, Dry Gangrene is the type typically found in diabetics where blood flow to an extremity is lost (usually a toe first in diabtetics). The tissues dies, turns black and falls off. While we don't want any of the birds to lose their toes, it is most likely that process which would occur here. Blood flow is lost because of the freezing, the tissue dies, turns black, and falls off.

The second type of Gangrene is called Wet Gangrene. That is much more serious because it is caused by a bacterial infection. It is typically caused by a bacteria called Clostridium perfringes. Clostridium perfringens is a bacterium that can only survive in the absence of oxygen. Once infection with Clostridium perfringens (CP) starts the bacteria releases a toxin that kills the surrounding tissue in order to create a pocket where blood no longer flows thereby eliminating the oxygen which blood carries with it. Tthis enables the bacteria to spread and grow. CP infection is usually accompanied by pus and the smell of death. I can think of no other way to describe it. The first time i smelled it in the ER i knew right away. Sometimes CP infection will result in gas pockets building up in the body. This is called Gas Gangrene.

So how do you rule out Wet Gangrene in this case? Is there a nasty green pussy discharge? Does it smell awful? Is it swelling significantly? Is it still bleeding? If is smells, has a pussy green discharge, is swelling considerably and you see no blood flow, then you must treat with antibiotics. None of the photos I have seen so far lead me to the conclusion that this is a case of Wet Gangrene at this time. In fact, the continued application of antibiotics should help to keep that from happening. You are doing a great job treating them. Stay the course and let's hope the damage has been limited by your actions.

 

[BY Bob]

Isn't gangrene black and/or streaking red due to infection moving up extremity?

Typically red streaking is a sign of a blood stream infection which could be caused by the same bacteria as Wet Gangrene but it could also be any number of bacteria that cause it.

 

[Kris5902]

I am going to jump in on the gangrene question. As someone with over 30 years experience as a microbiologist including many in hospitals, maybe I can help clear up any confusion.

Just to clear this up there are two types of gangrene, dry and wet. In humans, Dry Gangrene is the type typically found in diabetics where blood flow to an extremity is lost (usually a toe first in diabtetics). The tissues dies, turns black and falls off. While we don't want any of the birds to lose their toes, it is most likely that process which would occur here. Blood flow is lost because of the freezing, the tissue dies, turns black, and falls off.

The second type of Gangrene is called Wet Gangrene. That is much more serious because it is caused by a bacterial infection. It is typically caused by a bacteria called Clostridium perfringes. Clostridium perfringens is a bacterium that can only survive in the absence of oxygen. Once infection with Clostridium perfringens (CP) starts the bacteria releases a toxin that kills the surrounding tissue in order to create a pocket where blood no longer flows thereby eliminating the oxygen which blood carries with it. Tthis enables the bacteria to spread and grow. CP infection is usually accompanied by pus and the smell of death. I can think of no other way to describe it. The first time i smelled it in the ER i knew right away. Sometimes CP infection will result in gas pockets building up in the body. This is called Gas Gangrene.

So how do you rule out Wet Gangrene in this case? Is there a nasty green pussy discharge? Does it smell awful? Is it swelling significantly? Is it still bleeding? If is smells, has a pussy green discharge, is swelling considerably and you see no blood flow, then you must treat with antibiotics. None of the photos I have seen so far lead me to the conclusion that this is a case of Wet Gangrene at this time. In fact, the continued application of antibiotics should help to keep that from happening. You are doing a gret job treating them. Stay the course and let's hope the damage has been limited by your actions.

That Totally Helps clear things up! Thanks for the info. So would the loss of circulation and resulting necrotic black tissues in a case of frostbite or in tissue that’s been say elastrated also be a form of the dry gangrene? Just wanting to fully understand it. I’m more familiar with the wet variety, which is nasty