URGENT-- frozen feet!

[BY Bob]

That Totally Helps clear things up! Thanks for the info. So would the loss of circulation and resulting necrotic black tissues in a case of frostbite or in tissue that’s been say elastrated also be a form of the dry gangrene? Just wanting to fully understand it. I’m more familiar with the wet variety, which is nasty

Yes, that is Dry Gangrene. Gangrene is a term that has been applied to a variety of conditions in which you cut off or lose extremeties, hence there can be confusion between the different types.

 

[aart]

I am going to jump in on the gangrene question. As someone with over 30 years experience as a microbiologist including many in hospitals, maybe I can help clear up any confusion.

Thanks @BY Bob!

 

[BY Bob]

Thanks @BY Bob!

You are most welcome. It's not often i get to talk microbes unless its at work, LOL.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I am going to jump in on the gangrene question. As someone with over 30 years experience as a microbiologist including many in hospitals, maybe I can help clear up any confusion.

Just to clear this up there are two types of gangrene, dry and wet. In humans, Dry Gangrene is the type typically found in diabetics where blood flow to an extremity is lost (usually a toe first in diabtetics). The tissues dies, turns black and falls off. While we don't want any of the birds to lose their toes, it is most likely that process which would occur here. Blood flow is lost because of the freezing, the tissue dies, turns black, and falls off.

The second type of Gangrene is called Wet Gangrene. That is much more serious because it is caused by a bacterial infection. It is typically caused by a bacteria called Clostridium perfringes. Clostridium perfringens is a bacterium that can only survive in the absence of oxygen. Once infection with Clostridium perfringens (CP) starts the bacteria releases a toxin that kills the surrounding tissue in order to create a pocket where blood no longer flows thereby eliminating the oxygen which blood carries with it. Tthis enables the bacteria to spread and grow. CP infection is usually accompanied by pus and the smell of death. I can think of no other way to describe it. The first time i smelled it in the ER i knew right away. Sometimes CP infection will result in gas pockets building up in the body. This is called Gas Gangrene.

So how do you rule out Wet Gangrene in this case? Is there a nasty green pussy discharge? Does it smell awful? Is it swelling significantly? Is it still bleeding? If is smells, has a pussy green discharge, is swelling considerably and you see no blood flow, then you must treat with antibiotics. None of the photos I have seen so far lead me to the conclusion that this is a case of Wet Gangrene at this time. In fact, the continued application of antibiotics should help to keep that from happening. You are doing a great job treating them. Stay the course and let's hope the damage has been limited by your actions.

Very Interesting! Thank you

 

[Eggcessive]

Gas gangrene from clostridium perfringens is the same bacteria in the soil that causes necrotic enteritis in chickens.

 

[aart]

You are most welcome. It's not often i get to talk microbes unless its at work, LOL.

I love you 'bug counters'....worked in pharm mfg, including parenterals for 20 years.

 

[BY Bob]

Gas gangrene from clostridium perfringens is the same bacteria in the soil that causes necrotic enteritis in chickens.

Is essentially the same process, the infection starts, CP releases toxins to kill the surrounding tissue and create an oxygen free environment. It just has a different starting point.

 

[BY Bob]

I love you 'bug counters'....worked in pharm mfg, including parenterals for 20 years.

I knew I like you for a reason.

 

[Dona Worry]

I am going to jump in on the gangrene question. As someone with over 30 years experience as a microbiologist including many in hospitals, maybe I can help clear up any confusion.

Just to clear this up there are two types of gangrene, dry and wet. In humans, Dry Gangrene is the type typically found in diabetics where blood flow to an extremity is lost (usually a toe first in diabtetics). The tissues dies, turns black and falls off. While we don't want any of the birds to lose their toes, it is most likely that process which would occur here. Blood flow is lost because of the freezing, the tissue dies, turns black, and falls off.

The second type of Gangrene is called Wet Gangrene. That is much more serious because it is caused by a bacterial infection. It is typically caused by a bacteria called Clostridium perfringes. Clostridium perfringens is a bacterium that can only survive in the absence of oxygen. Once infection with Clostridium perfringens (CP) starts the bacteria releases a toxin that kills the surrounding tissue in order to create a pocket where blood no longer flows thereby eliminating the oxygen which blood carries with it. Tthis enables the bacteria to spread and grow. CP infection is usually accompanied by pus and the smell of death. I can think of no other way to describe it. The first time i smelled it in the ER i knew right away. Sometimes CP infection will result in gas pockets building up in the body. This is called Gas Gangrene.

So how do you rule out Wet Gangrene in this case? Is there a nasty green pussy discharge? Does it smell awful? Is it swelling significantly? Is it still bleeding? If is smells, has a pussy green discharge, is swelling considerably and you see no blood flow, then you must treat with antibiotics. None of the photos I have seen so far lead me to the conclusion that this is a case of Wet Gangrene at this time. In fact, the continued application of antibiotics should help to keep that from happening. You are doing a great job treating them. Stay the course and let's hope the damage has been limited by your actions.

Oh wow, what a great informational post! Thank you!

 

[Dona Worry]

Vet thinks that the one really nasty foot is surface damage only, and I should keep up my soaking and antibiotic ointment!
The other foot will likely loose all of the toes, but it looks as good as expected.