Washingtonians Come Together! Washington Peeps

[BGMatt]

1.) My concern about chicken illness is also the result of having chicks die that I bought as chicks instead of hatching them myself. They were in an outdoor brooder while my chicks are indoors but since this person has spent over $500 for a breeding pair of chickens I trusted his flock was healthy. These were chicks that were hatched in a professional incubator and hatcher while I use Little Giant incubators to hatch my own (with great results but some people don't get them to work well for them and go with more expensice incubators). I had two chicks that looked weak when I got home and they both died. They were older chicks mixed in with younger chicks that needed more heat so I thought I overheated them on the way home. Then I have lost two more that were trampled when I found them so I did not know what hapened to them. A few days ago I had another older chick down that was getting trampled so I pulled it out and noticed that it seemed to be having tremors when I held it on its back. It was keeping both legs stretched out in front of it so I was trying to figure out if there was something wrong with its legs. Looked up symptoms online and came up with a possible diagnosis of AE (Avian Encephalomyelitis) but the chick is older than three weeks so I am not sure if it is accurate. All the chicks that died are older than three weeks but less than 6 weeks old. According to what I read, if they survive they are immune but I don't know if they are carriers. It will be awhile before these chicks go outside but now I am wondering if my flock will be infected if that is what is causing chicks to die. I am also worried that my own chicks that I am hatching could be infected. I use plastic tubs for brooders with chicks of different ages in each tub so only one tub has had deaths but a second tub has chicks from the same breeder and could be infected as well. It sounds like symptoms in adults are not serious if they were to get it but it can be transmitted to their eggs (although a symptom of AEV is decreased egg production for two weeks). I may have infected my own Orpington and Silkie chicks with these other chicks but then they would basically be vaccinated from exposure, if I am understanding the virus exposure creating resistance theory correctly. Would this mean that I have nothing to worry about besides a handful of dead chicks or do I have a serious epidemic to contend with? Do I need to destroy all the exposed chicks or will they benefit from the exposure if that is what I am dealing with? Should I figure out how to test for it is any more die (only one death seems like it could be AEV at this point and that is based on my suspicion, not conclusive testing) or do I just take the losses and hope it is nothing serious?

2.) I made the mistake of buying a trio from an unethical woman in Auburn and both hens from that trio died shortly after I got them (one a day or two after I brought her home and the other about a month after I brought her home). They both died suddenly without symptoms and nothing else has died so I am hopefully it was just the stress she put them through by separating them when she kept one of them to sit on eggs for her. The rooster they were with was fine but I still do not trust buying anything from this woman again. Chances are the hens were spent before she sold them to me and that is why she was selling them (they were supposed to be laying but neither one did, although the second one that she held did not have much of a chance because it died so soon after I got her home.

3.) My hope with having a flock that is routinely tested for NPIP is that they would catch any diseases and diagnose them for me so I would know how to keep my flock disease free. Is that realistic or will all flocks have some sort of diseases that birds build antibodies to so they don't get sick. I know stress makes birds more prone to disease so adding new birds can cause stress for the new birds and the established birds as well. I want to keep a closed flock and only add chicks I have hatched and raised since that is what I have always done in the past and my chickens were always healthy but now I am afraid that adding chicks from someone else may have posed a threat to my flock. Also, what if I sell healthy birds that have been exposed to something they have a resistance against but the flock they are going to has not already been exposed? Would I risk getting someone else's flock sick by selling them my birds?

4.) I had an older chick get into the duck water this summer and when I pulled it out of the water it was sneezing. I thought that was good to get any water out of its lungs so I did not think to treat it with antibiotics. A friend wanted the chick and I told her about the sneezing when I delivered it with another chick she wanted. She had another bird that was sneezing so she put the chick from me with her young rooster to treat both with antibiotics. Her rooster recovered while the chick I sold her did not recover and died 6 to 8 weeks later. Then the other bird she got from me died suddenly 5 to 6 months after she got her. Nothing else seems to have been effected on my property or on her property so we don't know what happened. The not knowing scares me the most, though, because I don't know how to solve a problem until I can identify the problem.

5.) I have hatched and raised hundreds of chicks this summer without problems so having so many losses from the chicks I bought from someone else concerns me. I am going to stick with no more birds coming in but what about birds here and birds going out? How can I be certain none of my birds are diseased when I have had five chicks die from a batch of 18 chicks?

Going to respond to each paragraph, went back and numbered yours in quote:

1) Just because someone paid a lot of money for their birds doesn't assume they're a safe source, or a good poultry person, just that they spent a lot of money I'm sorry you had to learn that particular lesson. It sucks the birds got sick and you lost them, but as you said the survivors shouldn't have an issue with it. They will pass on their superior immune systems to their offspring. Most things that are dangers to younger birds are not for older birds, so I wouldn't worry about integrating them into your flock as they age. Sometimes I'll put some vitamin/electrolyte powder in the birds water when I'm doing introductions just to give a boost to the birds. Personal anecdote, especially not knowing other breeders methods for dealing with sickness sometimes the first year, maybe two you have higher than normal mortality, but if you stick strongly to the survival of the fittest, and aren't "helping" them they will get stronger and you won't even get a hint of illness.

2) Sounds like they were very frail, and stress may have done them in (perhaps they were much older than you were told too which would make them more fragile as well?). I'd tend to agree with your thinking here and just not do business with that person any longer and make sure to tell other people if they ask your opinion.

3. NPIP only tests for PT and AI. Nothing else. It is a false security blanket. There are people that are NPIP certified that I know their stock and would never buy a bird from them, there are non-NPIP members that I trust implicitly to have healthy vigorous stock. It's worth mentioning that a small breeder may not have a choice in the matter since WA's minimum birds to get tested is 30, a lot of breeders who specialize in one breed might not even have 30 birds that would qualify. It is always possible, but unlikely, that your flock may carry a strain of something that creates a problem elsewhere, but this is remote and neither you nor the buyer has any way of knowing this beforehand. I have never had this happen on either side of the transaction and I have been breeding, showing and trading for over 20 years. I will add that dealing with longtime breeders and show breeders will drastically reduce your risks. The truth is most birds if they appear healthy and vigorous and in good condition...are.

4.) I would imagine her bird was sick, your bird was weakened due to the experience with the getting soaked and almost drowning, caught the illness from her bird and couldn't fight it off. It's the most plausible scenario so Occam likes it. The bird that died suddenly after 5 or 6 months, if it arrived ill would have been infected before that, even if your flock was susceptible to something her flock carried. Sometimes birds die. It's just the way things go. It could have gotten sick from picking something up from a wild bird, it could have eaten something toxic, it could have had a heart attack. The large time difference (and no issues in your flock) tells us it's super highly unlikely that it was anything from your flock causing the issue. You can't worry about small isolated incidents, especially in animals as fragile as chickens. It takes time and a hard-nosed stance on breeding for hardiness to overcome.

5.) It would concern me too, but I wouldn't worry about it spreading to my birds because A) It's entirely possible their genetic line is just weak and the birds just don't thrive, I had this happen a few times with different breeds, the more rare and exotic the more likely this is (I have a theory on why that may surprise some but won't put it here, ask if you want) and B) If my bird's aren't strong enough to resist it I probably don't really want to breed from them anyway, no sense passing on weak immune systems.

To recap...don't overthink the room. If your birds are healthy and vigorous, good, keep it that way (by breeding from the most vigorous, and removing birds that get sick from the breeding program, seriously I know guys that if they see a bird sneeze period they chop it's head off, I'm not and don't advocate being that extreme.) You'll only have what you tolerate, if you tolerate birds that get sick, that require constant medication or vaccination then that's all you'll ever have.

When acquiring stock from a breeder, make sure it's someone that values vigor in their breeding, inspect the birds, or if they're young inspect the parent stock if possible. Ask other breeders about people. If it's a weaker line it will take time to breed them up, know you'll have higher than normal losses, plan accordingly and hatch extras, maybe don't sell chicks (under about 4-5 months since that's when most diseases that are harsher on young birds hit) from them for a couple years.

Hopefully some of that helps put your mind at ease. I know it sounds trite to say just don't worry, but honestly that's the best policy. I went through that phase of poultry keeping, my mentor tried and tried to get me to relax, it took a while to sink in.

 

[Zgoatlady]

My concern about chicken illness is also the result of having chicks die that I bought as chicks instead of hatching them myself. They were in an outdoor brooder while my chicks are indoors but since this person has spent over $500 for a breeding pair of chickens I trusted his flock was healthy. These were chicks that were hatched in a professional incubator and hatcher while I use Little Giant incubators to hatch my own (with great results but some people don't get them to work well for them and go with more expensice incubators). I had two chicks that looked weak when I got home and they both died. They were older chicks mixed in with younger chicks that needed more heat so I thought I overheated them on the way home. Then I have lost two more that were trampled when I found them so I did not know what hapened to them. A few days ago I had another older chick down that was getting trampled so I pulled it out and noticed that it seemed to be having tremors when I held it on its back. It was keeping both legs stretched out in front of it so I was trying to figure out if there was something wrong with its legs. Looked up symptoms online and came up with a possible diagnosis of AE (Avian Encephalomyelitis) but the chick is older than three weeks so I am not sure if it is accurate. All the chicks that died are older than three weeks but less than 6 weeks old. According to what I read, if they survive they are immune but I don't know if they are carriers. It will be awhile before these chicks go outside but now I am wondering if my flock will be infected if that is what is causing chicks to die. I am also worried that my own chicks that I am hatching could be infected. I use plastic tubs for brooders with chicks of different ages in each tub so only one tub has had deaths but a second tub has chicks from the same breeder and could be infected as well. It sounds like symptoms in adults are not serious if they were to get it but it can be transmitted to their eggs (although a symptom of AEV is decreased egg production for two weeks). I may have infected my own Orpington and Silkie chicks with these other chicks but then they would basically be vaccinated from exposure, if I am understanding the virus exposure creating resistance theory correctly. Would this mean that I have nothing to worry about besides a handful of dead chicks or do I have a serious epidemic to contend with? Do I need to destroy all the exposed chicks or will they benefit from the exposure if that is what I am dealing with? Should I figure out how to test for it is any more die (only one death seems like it could be AEV at this point and that is based on my suspicion, not conclusive testing) or do I just take the losses and hope it is nothing serious?

I made the mistake of buying a trio from an unethical woman in Auburn and both hens from that trio died shortly after I got them (one a day or two after I brought her home and the other about a month after I brought her home). They both died suddenly without symptoms and nothing else has died so I am hopefully it was just the stress she put them through by separating them when she kept one of them to sit on eggs for her. The rooster they were with was fine but I still do not trust buying anything from this woman again. Chances are the hens were spent before she sold them to me and that is why she was selling them (they were supposed to be laying but neither one did, although the second one that she held did not have much of a chance because it died so soon after I got her home.

My hope with having a flock that is routinely tested for NPIP is that they would catch any diseases and diagnose them for me so I would know how to keep my flock disease free. Is that realistic or will all flocks have some sort of diseases that birds build antibodies to so they don't get sick. I know stress makes birds more prone to disease so adding new birds can cause stress for the new birds and the established birds as well. I want to keep a closed flock and only add chicks I have hatched and raised since that is what I have always done in the past and my chickens were always healthy but now I am afraid that adding chicks from someone else may have posed a threat to my flock. Also, what if I sell healthy birds that have been exposed to something they have a resistance against but the flock they are going to has not already been exposed? Would I risk getting someone else's flock sick by selling them my birds?

I had an older chick get into the duck water this summer and when I pulled it out of the water it was sneezing. I thought that was good to get any water out of its lungs so I did not think to treat it with antibiotics. A friend wanted the chick and I told her about the sneezing when I delivered it with another chick she wanted. She had another bird that was sneezing so she put the chick from me with her young rooster to treat both with antibiotics. Her rooster recovered while the chick I sold her did not recover and died 6 to 8 weeks later. Then the other bird she got from me died suddenly 5 to 6 months after she got her. Nothing else seems to have been effected on my property or on her property so we don't know what happened. The not knowing scares me the most, though, because I don't know how to solve a problem until I can identify the problem.

I have hatched and raised hundreds of chicks this summer without problems so having so many losses from the chicks I bought from someone else concerns me. I am going to stick with no more birds coming in but what about birds here and birds going out? How can I be certain none of my birds are diseased when I have had five chicks die from a batch of 18 chicks?

First thing I'd do is call the person you.got the chicks from and tell them what is going on and see what they say. You said you put different ages together how different days or weeks?
I'm sorry you have had such a hard time.

I also have a LG incubator and a large cabinet that my husband made, as long as they are cleaned and taken care.of.it doesn't matter.

So how old.we're the hens you got.That died? Did you contact the woman you got.them from?

I have got chicks.from a person that something was wrong. Talked with a friend and years back she got chicks that had something wrong from the same person, it's hard to know.

 

[Duck Drover]

Wow, thank you so much for the replies! When I fret over things to my husband he tells me not to worry but that does not stop me from worrying! My brain has a much easier time processing a logical argument against needless worry than to just not worry because I should not worry.

In the past I bought chicks from the feed store (hatchery stock) and raised my own chicks from them. I gave them a coop, food, and water, then let them come and go as they pleased on 40 acres. They ate bugs from livestock maure and made eggs so all was good. The hens got old and eventually died while the roosters made nice chicken dinners (I would keep roosters at times to make more chicks but we mainly ate the eggs). I never worried about diseases because that was before information overload from the internet. I did some selling of meat birds but kept hens for more eggs. I had a flock of over 50 chocolate Muscovy (pure chocolate with no white leakage) ducks because they were so prolific and only the drakes were eaten due to their size difference. All was good and the birds thrived.

Part of my worry now is because I am selling birds instead of keeping everything I raise. I want to make sure I have a good product and that my flock stays healthy and prolific. I started with hatching eggs and chicks primarily but then I broke down and bought my own egg layers to speed things along. All was well until birds died and then I started to worry that I am to blame for the two birds my friend lost. I paid her back for them because I wanted to do the right thing but then I realized I could be responsible for her losing her entire flock if the birds made other birds sick. That led me to worry about my own birds and every bird that has come into contact with my birds. There have not been more deaths but I lie awake at night worried that everything will drop dead and it will all be my fault! I worry far too easily to merely stop worrying.

What you wrote makes so much sense that it puts my mind at ease. If only my husband could counter my thinking so well. Instead of not worrying I just don't tell him when I am worried and I end up with stomach ulcers (which thanks to antibiotics for the bacteria that contributed to the ulcers should be healing after months of stomach pain).

The chicks were separated into two tubs by size because there were too many for one tub. They now take up three tubs so the older ones that were in one tub are now divided into two tubs. If it were summer they would be going out to the coop but they need extra time inside due to the cold and rain.

I did not even ask how old the hens were, which is why I think they may have been spent. They were laying but not much before I bought them. I was trying to fill an order for Sizzles and did not think I would want to raise them longterm. After one died I found a replacement and she is the only frizzle that has laid eggs for me, even with the stress of moving her from one home to another. The two hens from this woman in Auburn just died so I got nothing out of them.

 

[cieraphoto]

I have some really nice chickens for sale if anyone is interested. Brahmas, Cochins, Phoenix, d'Anvers, Ameraucanas, Sumatras. PM me if you want the craigslist link.

 

[CarolynF]

I did really well!
I had Champion Large Fowl, Champion Asiatic, BB & BV with my Black Cochin Pullet

Also had RB & RV on my Large Fowl Black Cochin cockerel

BV on my Large Fowl Golden Laced pullet, RV on my LF Golden Laced cockerel, 1st on my LF Golden Phoenix pullet, 1st on my LF Blue Sumatra pullet, BB & BV on my Bantam Black Sumatra cockerel, 2nd on my bantam Black sumatra pullet, RV on my bantam Blue Sumatra Cockerel, 1st on Bantam Black Cochin cock bird, 2nd on my Black Ameraucana cockerel, RV on my Columbian Plymouth Rock cockerel, RB & BV on my Black d'Anver pullet, BV on my Self-Blue d'Anver pullet and RV on my Self-Blue Cuckoo pullet.

How did everyone else do? It was such a fun show!

Oh, that's Super! Congratulations!

And thanks for including the pictures!
You must have had a truckload of birds.

Congratulations! Great showing! That pullet is gorgeous, was admiring it before judging!


My winnings aren't nearly as awesome. I ended up taking RV Spangled Old English Game Bantam with a pullet.



and RV Silver Pencilled Plymouth Rock Large Fowl (no picture because she kept looking dumpy).

Congrats Matt, certainly better than a kick in the shins!

And thanks for the pic!

 

[Totalcolour]

To recap...don't overthink the room. If your birds are healthy and vigorous, good, keep it that way (by breeding from the most vigorous, and removing birds that get sick from the breeding program, seriously I know guys that if they see a bird sneeze period they chop it's head off, I'm not and don't advocate being that extreme.) You'll only have what you tolerate, if you tolerate birds that get sick, that require constant medication or vaccination then that's all you'll ever have.

When acquiring stock from a breeder, make sure it's someone that values vigor in their breeding, inspect the birds, or if they're young inspect the parent stock if possible. Ask other breeders about people. If it's a weaker line it will take time to breed them up, know you'll have higher than normal losses, plan accordingly and hatch extras, maybe don't sell chicks (under about 4-5 months since that's when most diseases that are harsher on young birds hit) from them for a couple years.

Hopefully some of that helps put your mind at ease. I know it sounds trite to say just don't worry, but honestly that's the best policy. I went through that phase of poultry keeping, my mentor tried and tried to get me to relax, it took a while to sink in.

Right on Matt.

This year I had some losses, which I never had before. In the past I had raised my own chicks from my own stock. This time I think it was due to the all out/all in I did. I got rid of EVERYTHING in order to let the pasture regrow, and then restocked. I got eggs and hatched them, about half died. The weak died and won't be reproducing. Those that survived are doing well and will be my breeders. I also got some older POL chickens, and they are integrated and all are doing well.

I have quarantine cages, but not for sickness. It's for injuries. Or for holding cages if buyers are coming over.

I don't mess with my chickens - I watch from afar! I go in to collect eggs, clean occasionally and feed, that's it.

DuckDrover - some people think that chickens are frail, but I happen to think they are a lot stronger than we give them credit for, "if we leave them alone!" It's when we mess with them, that they have problems.

Clean, Food, water, shelter and they will be fine.

 

[elizmartin]

yes, but I won't be home until late so either hold them until
we can met later in week or drop them off at the farm. I need to pay Robin or if you can
pay , I will refund you as well. plus gas and pair of Rhodebar chicks as thank you payment
or future chicks from another breed ?
will this work
diane

HI, Had a wonderful time visiting Robin. I was going anyway so just help someone else along the way…..Thankyou so much Robin, my 2 OE's are sooooo pretty and am looking forward to enjoying their eggs. Am glad that i was able to connect with Megan also to make the exchange….Gotta say that Rob was the one that made it work by knowing all of You…..I am not a facebooker……But think i will try if only to be a part of the Washington group….We are so fortunate to have such nice people…..

 

[elizmartin]

I have hypersensitivity pneumonitis. Up until now, I've only had reactions when I cleaned the coop. I get someone else to do it. Yesterday, I had a reaction after the poultry show for the first time. That means no more poultry shows for me. I'm seriously bummed.

It's just a matter of time until I have to get rid of the chickens.

Hello, so sorry…..I have been lucky not to have too many sensitivities….Have You thought to check out the Puget Consumer Coop, or a quality health oriented food & supplement stores and as questions about your situation????….Thou not always, sometimes strengthening ones immune system or adding / changing the way one eats can over come some symptoms. I rarely drink milk, and need to limit my flour & sugar otherwise my lungs become extremely congested.

 

[DeltaBluezTess]

HI, Had a wonderful time visiting Robin. I was going anyway so just help someone else along the way…..Thankyou so much Robin, my 2 OE's are sooooo pretty and am looking forward to enjoying their eggs. Am glad that i was able to connect with Megan also to make the exchange….Gotta say that Rob was the one that made it work by knowing all of You…..I am not a facebooker……But think i will try if only to be a part of the Washington group….We are so fortunate to have such nice people…..

Robin

Much thanks for Maxwell and his two hens. They arrived fine and are all settled in. Maxwell impressed us with his crowing skills this morning. He really takes care of his hens....feeds them first and then himself. Love that in a rooster.

And he is quite stunning and a hunk!


Eliz- much thanks for picking them up and arranging exchange at the show on sort notice....you rock!

thanks again....diane

 

[hallerlake]

Quote: The problem is an overactive immune system rather than a weak one. My immune system has decided these proteins are dangerous and it is going to destroy them even if it damages my lungs in the process.