Washingtonians

[itsren]

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Just a regular bulb. A red bulb is for heat, and if you're not careful with those, you can have a fire.

 

[Justahannah]

This thread moves so fast some days!

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What kind do you raise?

I'm starting to get the bug to get back into discus but only one tank this time. until I get a pair.
I love using the water I change out on plants. Big difference in growth.

I have a 75 gallon South American biotope (mostly angels, diamond tetras, and lots of live plants), a 46 gallon fancy goldfish tank, a 20 gallon long divided so two bettas can share it, and a little 5 gallon I'm using as a grow out for some baby bristlenose plecos spawned by my adult pair in the big tank . I've noticed I have to change the soil in my plants more often (like once a year instead of every few years) due to too much mineral build up when I use the aquarium water, but the extra growth is amazing and definitely worth an extra "play in the dirt" chore.

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Quote: My coop's not so big, so I use a sand box under their roost for easy poop scooping. I haven't had chickens long enough to have formed a real opinion on a lot of things, but I am trying the deep litter method in my run, which has a dirt floor, and so far it's working great, I fluff/stir it up and add some shavings once a week. I just pulled an all-nighter writing a paper, so I'm in explaining/rambling mode...so here's my take on the science of why deep litter works and why I chose to try it for myself.

First, a little background. I have a lot of fish and I've noticed fish and chickens have one thing in common...both make a lot of ammonia and ammonia is bad for them. In my fishtanks, what keeps the ammonia from harming my fish is my filter, and what the filter provides is water flow over an aerobic space for beneficial bacteria to live. These bacteria convert the ammonia to nitrites, then other beneficial bacteria turn the nitrites to nitrates. The bacteria can live in both water and land (but need a surface to attach to), and will naturally populate a filter over time as long as they have a little ammonia to feed on, a sponge to cling to and proper oxygen flow (provided by the moving water). If I were to change my filter media every week, my fish would quickly die of ammonia poisoning unless I also did daily water changes to manually remove the waste they're secreting. Big pain in the butt..with the bacterial conversion, the colony grows to a size the ammonia can sustain, so it's self regulating and my ammonia and nitrite readings are always zero, but it does take about a month to get this bacterial cycle established which is one reason so many people have dead and sick fish when they first start keeping them. I still need to change the water periodically to remove the nitrates, but I can do that once or twice a month without the fish taking any damage since it's a much less harmful substance (and why fishtank water and chicken compost make plants grow well...straight ammonia burns, but once converted to nitrate, it's great fertilizer.)

I see my chicken run as a similar biological system. The chickens are providing a constant source of ammonia, and if I keep the bedding fluffy, those bacteria have a nice aerobic place to live and convert the ammonia to less harmful substances as it's deposited, so if I stick my face down in the bedding (ended up that way last week trying to make the run more secure) there's only an earthy compost smell. I refresh the bedding to help keep it from getting compacted, and if water were to spill, I'd pull that out and add fresh dry stuff...but I always leave enough of the old bedding to help inoculate the new with the good bacteria so the colony doesn't have to completely start over, just play a little catch up. If I were pulling everything out every week, a few bacteria in nature would try to start over every week on a sterile bed, and given the length of time it takes for the bacteria to establish a good colony, it's just not gonna happen so the run gets stinky and has to be sterilized week after week and in the meantime the chickens are stuck breathing it until I have the time to catch up on the cleaning. I figure why make extra work for myself when nature has a better handle on waste management than I do anyway?

So yes, so far, it's working for me. Also, I live on top of a hill with good drainage, my run has great ventilation, and between my weekly additions the chickens do a pretty good job of keeping things stirred up, so those are some factors that help keep it from getting muddy and gross. Also, knowing that it takes some time to get the bacterial colony going, if I were to try it in a coop with less ventilation, I'd be concerned about an initial ammonia build-up. To counter that I'd probably do a modified version at first, pulling out at least half of the bedding and replacing with new (I'm thinking at least weekly or as needed...if you can smell the ammonia, it's needed) to try and keep the ammonia levels down for the girls, but leaving enough of the old that the bacterial colonies have a chance to keep growing, and then once there was no trace at all of the ammonia smell shifting to full blown deep litter.

Just my thoughts, I know different folks have different strokes and that's fine too.

Justahannah, I love how you laid this out! Nice job!
I haven't had my chickens very long either, and they've only been in their permanent house since July. We are also doing the DL method with a dirt floor. So far, it's working really well. I also rake the shavings around to get them fluffed up and rotated every few days/as needed and sprinkle DE all around too. We have good ventilation as well and I haven't noticed much of a smell at all. I don't keep their water inside with them because the ducks throw it everywhere and soak the shavings to the ground so I nixed that real quick! I don't have a poop board under the roost yet, but that's our next project.
Someone on this forum posted a really good article awhile back (during the summer) that was really informative about the DL method, I wish I would've saved it. It included everything from what the DL method is, how to do it, what it does (like you explained w/the bacteria) and why it doesn't work for so many people, (according to this article, it's b/c most people don't do it correctly, they change the litter to often, not giving the bacteria time to do good things).
I also used to have a fresh water tank. It took me forever to figure out why in the world my fish kept dying in a brand new set up. That's when I stopped listening to the "fish" people at petco and petsmart and did my own research. After that, I rarely lost a fish, had the same fish (until we moved from Co. to Wa.) for 5 years, one of which was a gold fish my kids won at the fair. Funny thing about that was that I relied mostly on the filter, doing only partial water changes and keeping ALL chemicles out of my tank!! Worked like a charm!
Anyway, I really liked how you broke this down!

Thank you! I'm an environmental science major, so I'm used to translating what I'm up to to my less-scientifically inclined friends. The only thing about your set-up that I'm concerned about is your use of DE with the deep litter. I bought a bunch when I got my chickens because everything I read made it sound like a necessity for healthy chickens, but after doing more research into how it works, it's counter productive to making deep litter work. DE basically dries out the fatty layer around and dehydrates microfauna, so while you're doing deep litter to build a healthy environment for beneficial bacteria with the theory that the good colony will outcompete the bad stuff (just like eating fiber and yogurt to boost your gut fauna), you're simultaneously adding an agent (antibacterial) that's nuking everything indiscriminately. So instead of a healthy decomposition, you're stirring around a bunch of poopy litter that's just being dried out by the addition of new litter and DE, and stinks when it gets wet again (And by you, I mean what I experienced at first before I did some extra research). I'm not down with that...I want their poop converted to healthy mulch full of beneficial bugs that flourish and leave no room for the baddies. Since I still have my DE and don't want it going to waste, I've switched to mixing some in with the sand on my poopboards to fight any potential issues there since that's where they poop the most (I scoop that daily), and that is working great for me so far. If what you're doing is working for you so far, that's great and I'm not criticizing....I just thought I'd point out where it doesn't make sense to me and I experienced some issues at first doing the same.

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I'd be interested in seeing studies to compare the hazards and constituents of compost gasses versus ammonia gasses since I honestly don't know much about what compost puts off and the health of my girls is more important to me than being right about a method. I'm guessing it's also probably dependent on the materials being composted and how it's being composted (deep litter with ample oxygen vs. anaerobic hot compost comes to mind). Either way, I think that's where ventilation comes in to play...whether it's a week's build up of ammonia or a week's build up of compost gasses, chickens need fresh air.

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I have read that, too. That said, experience has taught me that what you "read" about can be very different from what you actually "see" or experience. People can describe things, and then when you actually see the set-up it is a lot different from what you imagined it would be. I'd be cautious about trying that unless I actually witnessed a set-up where it really worked.

Microbes help break down compost, but that doesn't mean I'd want my animals walking, living in, sleeping near said compost. Not to mention, compost is a huge attraction for rats. They like to dig into the warmth of it.

Common sense needs to come into play into animal husbandry, as well.

As for your question - I have a dirt floor in my run. I scoop it. It is a small run so I scoop it daily. Those with larger runs wouldn't need to do that, but I need to so my girls always have a clean place to walk around on. They poop a lot. It doesn't take long before my girls won't have clean places to walk if I don't scoop. But it also only takes about 5 minutes of my time to completely scoop the entire coop and run each day. I also keep a sprinkling of oyster shell and cherry grit over the top of the dirt floor.

This kind of reinforces how someone may read about something that may not translate into what everyone should do. If I had just told you that I scoop daily, and you have a huge run, you might imagine someone scooping a huge run on a daily basis. I've seen large runs that I wouldn't scoop daily - no way! But, mine is small, so I have to if I want my tiny flock to stay healthy.

I think another misconception is the idea of the deep litter composting like a standard compost pile...when I started reading about it, I had this idea of a chicken run full of food scraps and garden leftovers and all the other yard waste that takes forever and a day to break down. I don't want my chickens living in that kind of mess nor do I trust them to keep a pile like that aerated so I still keep a separate compost pile for the gross stuff as well as utilize my yard waste bin. I think the idea of that kind of easy catch-all solution for organic waste is far too good to be true and won't work due to scale and moisture and rats and, I agree, it would get disgusting pretty quick. The only things breaking down in my run are pine shavings, dried leaves now that it's fall, and chicken poop. Over the week, it starts to flatten out and when I notice it's starting to look a little thin, I add more and fluff it all together. The older stuff starts to take on a mulchy consistency and smell, kind of spongy like a forest floor, that's way different than the stuff I pull out of my compost pile. Since I've only been doing it this summer, I don't have a lot of build up yet and my experience is just my own...so far I've been pleasantly surprised at how well it works for me. But I am honestly curious as to whether it will hold up through the moisture and the cold of the winter since bacterial activity often slows with the temperature...I may end up becoming a fair-weather deep litter user depending on how it goes. Theoretically the mulch should keep itself warm enough to maintain the process, but I can't feel any appreciable heat coming off it (my litter may not be deep enough yet) so I'm not depending on that to keep my girls toasty. I'm glad I can share my experiences and ideas here, the feedback really helps me understand the pros and cons and have alternatives in mind should things go south...so thank ya'll!

Hi all, my husband I just moved to Kettle Falls, WA (Northeast) and we're looking for a homestead so that we can raise chickens (among other self sustainable ventures). If anyone is in the area, please get in touch. I don't know many people yet and I would love to find a community here!

Welcome! Good luck in your search, I love the landscape in eastern WA and miss living on that side of the mountains dearly.

 

[Cloverleaf Farm]

Oregon Spring Poultry Swap at the Clackamas Co Fairgrounds, Saturday, April 27, 2013

FB page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/486608721372085/

 

[SadieSue]

She's a fluffy girl! I love fluffy Favs...

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[CarolynF]

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So they ripen even in the cold garage? I thought they'd need to be a bit warmer. Interesting.

I hung mine in the barn. While I didn't get 100% What I got was better than none at all !!

This year I'm actually going to test this. I have a variety of tomatoes I love and I've been eating them like crazy the past 3 weeks and there are still some on the bushes that have started to turn pink but are far from ripe.

My position on ripening tomatoes other than on the bush while it's still planted in the garden is.... It May Turn Red, But That's Not The Same Thing At Being RIPE!

But, I hate to tell people they're crazy until I've proven it to myself. SO.... I have one of the "pink" tomatoes on my windowsill, and I have the uprooted bush from whence it came hanging upside down in my shed. And I have actual ripe tomatoes from that same bush in my kitchen. We are going to do a taste test when those "pink" tomatoes turn red. I hope they turn out yummy and my earlier theory is proven wrong! I'm being cautiously optimistic.

 

[CarolynF]

Hi all, my husband I just moved to Kettle Falls, WA (Northeast) and we're looking for a homestead so that we can raise chickens (among other self sustainable ventures). If anyone is in the area, please get in touch. I don't know many people yet and I would love to find a community here!

Hi There! Welcome to BYC!!

We have a member here that's from Colville, he'll probably say Hi shortly. Love Kettle Falls, it's so pretty there. I have family in the area but seldom have the chance to make it over.

 

[hallerlake]

I met my new neighbor getting the mail yesterday. Today, she let me rake up all her pine straw for my runs. A win/win for everyone.

 

[HoneysuckleHills]

Hallerlake:
Your Polish Pickle Soup is so good and I know it's an old, old recipe.
Bet Rainwolf would love the recipe in her book.
You gave it to me some time ago; may I pass it on to her?

 

[Greg Richardson]

Quote: Discus fish if you want the best growth and health get their water changed 100%.
Some do it every day.
I just couldn't do that. LOL!
I did do 100% changes though every three days or 80% change every day.
Or 50% every day.
Didn't really have a routine it depended on how tired I was.
When I raise discus again it won't be that intense type of care.

I had many tanks going with three Rubbermaid garbage cans with air blowing in them to get any chlorine etc out of the water before changes along with a lot of filters in tanks.

Here is some pictures of my old set up. The rewards were great but the work was to much after so many years doing it by myself so I took a break.

If you are going to start raising discus remember this.......

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

Their spawning cone..................

My fish room pictures on another computer. All I got on Photobucket is fish pictures and the start of the water process.

How I got my water into the fish room......................

Some of these links may not work anymore but if anyone wants to raise Discus this is a collection of links I put together long time ago...........



Simply Discus Recources........
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/links.shtml

Water education links...........
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html
http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34884&highlight=drop

Medications and treatments.........
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products.html

Disease pictures........
http://203.116.88.76/content/phase1/Customer_Svc/disease/fishDoctor_Other.html

Water Storage Barrels
http://www.tank-depot.com/
http://www.plastic-mart.com/
http://www.norwesco.com/Index.cfm?Section=LST
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=25&Pa....

Supplies........
http://www.bigalsonline.com/
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Shop.cfm?N=2004
http://www.jehmco.com/index.html
http://www.thatpetplace.com/MainPro/IndexFish.aspx
http://www.4fishstuff.com/
http://www.marinedepot.com/homepage.asp
http://www.kensfish.com/
http://www.pythonproducts.com/
http://www.aquaticeco.com/

Breeding Cones
http://www.rosenthalpottery.com/

Tank Racks
http://www.gorillarack.com/
http://www.buyrack.com/fastrak_6footH.asp

Tank Size Calculators............
http://www.garf.org/calculators/TankVolumeCalculator.asp
http://www.fishaholics.org/phpBB2/tank_calc.php?sid=78cfeba4af8a71ea187a5ecb9835f9d4

This one includes measurement for dosing meds. Very cool!
http://home.earthlink.net/~grenier2/convert.htm

Pump distance, etc...............
http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php


Food sources.........
http://www.livefoodcultures.com/
http://brineshrimpdirect.com/index.html
http://www.kensfish.com/index.html
http://www.inve.com/fish/index.asp?id=152
http://kazarie.com/index.html
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Fish%20Food_files/Omega%20Flake.asp
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_fish_food_ocean_nutrition_dry_subindex.asp?ast=&key=
http://www.mreed.com/index.shtml
http://www.sfbb.com/home.asp
http://aquaticfoods.com/


Beef Heart Recipes
http://article.dphnet.com/cat-01/beefheart1.shtml
http://www.discushatchery.com/food.html
http://www.rockymountaindiscus.com/Discus_fish_food_recipe.htm

Shipping your fish......
http://www.atchison.com/ArticlesandStories/Shippingfish.html
http://www.uniquaria.com/articles/shipping.html

Make your own sponge filter.........
http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40648

Plant info in general........
http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/
http://www.thekrib.com/
http://www.vectrapoint.com/main/infocentral.html
http://www.plantella.com/

Plant Suppliers...........
http://www.floridadriftwood.com/driftwood.html
http://www.azgardens.com/
http://aquariumplant.com/cgi-bin/cart/index.html
http://192.38.244.204/go.asp?show=products
http://www.trueaquariumplants.com/

 

[hallerlake]

Hallerlake:
Your Polish Pickle Soup is so good and I know it's an old, old recipe.
Bet Rainwolf would love the recipe in her book.
You gave it to me some time ago; may I pass it on to her?

Of course!