Waterer Design Problem-Seeking Scientist :)

[irsmun]

So it was time to move on from filling the water pan daily so I decided to make a gravity feed waterer. I had just completed a small version for inside the coop using a coleman water thermos turned upside down. It worked perfectly. I think I understand the concept fairly well. You have an air tight reservoir with a hole at the bottom that sets the depth of the water in the pan. Once the water fills to or slightly above the hole the flow stops because of a vapor lock. It will only flow again once the depth goes below the outlet.

I don't have a pic of my waterer so I drew a simple diagram to reference. I can get a picture if that becomes necessary. I am using items I had on hand. I have a 15 gallon plastic barrel for my reservoir. I screwed in a water valve at the bottom so that I could turn it off when refilling the container. I ran a plastic vinyl hose from that valve into the pan about 1/4 inch below the top edge. Thats the setup.

Now when turning it on it fills the pan...and keeps filling the pan. The flow does not stop. There are no air bubbles inside the tube or the water. I have sealed the valve area with silicone to ensure no leaks. The compression fitting for the vinyl hose is tight and also has teflon tape (just to be certain). There are no leaks around the valve anywhere with a full barrel and leak test. As it flows, the sides of the barrel suck in because of the vacuum. It seems there is negative pressure inside the reservoir. Do I need another hole at the top with the vinyl hose going into the tray as well? Can anyone trouble shoot with me?

Just to be clear, I don't have a pan large enough for this barrel to fit into so I am using my regular 12 inch water pan below it. So the vinyl hose is serving as the outlet.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

View attachment 3155112
So it was time to move on from filling the water pan daily so I decided to make a gravity feed waterer. I had just completed a small version for inside the coop using a coleman water thermos turned upside down. It worked perfectly. I think I understand the concept fairly well. You have an air tight reservoir with a hole at the bottom that sets the depth of the water in the pan. Once the water fills to or slightly above the hole the flow stops because of a vapor lock. It will only flow again once the depth goes below the outlet.

I don't have a pic of my waterer so I drew a simple diagram to reference. I can get a picture if that becomes necessary. I am using items I had on hand. I have a 15 gallon plastic barrel for my reservoir. I screwed in a water valve at the bottom so that I could turn it off when refilling the container. I ran a plastic vinyl hose from that valve into the pan about 1/4 inch below the top edge. Thats the setup.

Now when turning it on it fills the pan...and keeps filling the pan. The flow does not stop. There are no air bubbles inside the tube or the water. I have sealed the valve area with silicone to ensure no leaks. The compression fitting for the vinyl hose is tight and also has teflon tape (just to be certain). There are no leaks around the valve anywhere with a full barrel and leak test. As it flows, the sides of the barrel suck in because of the vacuum. It seems there is negative pressure inside the reservoir. Do I need another hole at the top with the vinyl hose going into the tray as well? Can anyone trouble shoot with me?

Just to be clear, I don't have a pan large enough for this barrel to fit into so I am using my regular 12 inch water pan below it. So the vinyl hose is serving as the outlet.

Easy. You answered the problem yourself.

Your barrel is creating an inadequate vapor lock (negative pressure space), because its deforming from outside (atmospheric) pressure. The larger the reservior, the more water has to flow out before the negative pressure of the void equals outside pressure and prevents further water from escaping.

Which is why large water caches usually use a float system as the cut off, rather than negative air pressure. You will likely have better luck with a modified toilet tank float system.

 

[Rose Quartz]

I use the blue bottles for a human water dispenser, inside of a 5 gallon bucket with holes cut in the bucket for the chickens to put their heads in, and a cup that is tall enough to keep the bottle from touching the floor of the bucket with holes drilled in it.

 

[gtaus]

Which is why large water caches usually use a float system as the cut off, rather than negative air pressure. You will likely have better luck with a modified toilet tank float system.

+1. Check out something like these float valves, installed in the pan of water, to automatically shut off the water flow when it reaches your desired water level in the pan.

With a float valve, you don't need an inverted water container and any complicated negative pressure setup. Any sized water storage container that is easy to fill would work fine.

 

[raingarden]

The beauty of the float valve is that the reservoir container can have an open top so it is easy to refill. It does not have to be filled and then inverted.

The problem with a float valve on anything except a pressurized mains water line is that the valve can get debris lodged in the seal and leak.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I have looked at those but I was not able to determine if they work with a gravity feed system. There won't be much water pressure. I don't have water at my coop.

I use something similar in two gravity fed systems. They work. One is a stock tank valve, same principle, different float shape. The other is identical design, but slightly smaller, in an automatic dog watering bowl.

 

[irsmun]

I might try the float valve since there is confirmation it can work in a gravity feed situation. Right now I just turn the valve in the morning to fill it up. At least I only have to fill the 15 gallon container every couple of weeks. I hate toting water. Its the 21st century. That should not have to happen.

 

[irsmun]

+1. Check out something like these float valves, installed in the pan of water, to automatically shut off the water flow when it reaches your desired water level in the pan.

I have looked at those but I was not able to determine if they work with a gravity feed system. There won't be much water pressure. I don't have water at my coop.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Given the picture that OP showed us in the first post, I was suggesting that any water container with a vinyl hose running down into a float valve mounted in the watering dish would work. You don't need any pressurized water system and I was not suggesting any kind of equal water elevation system. You set the float valve to shut off the water flow at the desired water level you want in the pan. Hope that better explains what I meant.

Yes, I simply misread. Apologies. Not enough sleep. You were clear, I was in the wrong ball field.

 

[gtaus]

15 gallons creates 124 pounds of downward pressure versus 8.3 lbs that your 1 gallon Coleman water thermos created. You would need a much deeper tray and the hose at the bottom of it to stop that kind of pressure.

I am not familiar with "pounds of downward pressure" as used in your example. I set up an elevated rain barrel and calculated the PSI at: A column of water has 1 psi for every 2.31 feet of height. Nowhere did it mention pounds of downward pressure. As far as I know, a 1 gallon jug of water would have the same PSI as a 500 gallon tank of water at the same height - but obviously a 500 gallon tank of water would weigh much more.

I hate toting water. Its the 21st century. That should not have to happen.

Yeah, if you can't run a garden hose where you need it, water gets heavy. A couple of options come to mind to reduce the load.

1) If you have a riding lawn mower, just get a small trailer to pull behind it. You could fill up a heavy container of water and just let the mower pull it for you.

2) You could invest in a 4 wheeled Gorilla garden cart. My 6 cubic foot cart can hold something like 1,000 pounds. Even a 200 pound load of water would be easy to tote by hand with a Gorilla cart.

BONUS: The Gorilla cart I purchased has a handle that converts between hand pulling and riding mower towing. If you have a riding mower, or think you might get one someday, then it's well worth the money to get the model with the handle that converts for your use.

I use my Gorilla cart a lot just by hand pulling it. It works great. If I have a really heavy load, then I hitch it up to my riding mower - after all, it is the 21st Century - and I was born in the 20th Century so I don't feel bad when I have to hitch the load to my rider.

3) If you are checking up on your chickens daily, you could just tote out a smaller 1 or 2 gallon jug of water with you. You don't need to carry all 15 gallons at one time. Split the load up and reduce the effort.

4) Depending on your terrain, you might be able to use a water transfer pump with garden hoses. I have a 12v water transfer pump that pumps about 5 GPM and it does not really matter how long the hose is, as long as you are not trying to pump the water uphill far away. You can get those 12v water transfer pumps for less than $100. Mine has lasted over 3 years so it was a good buy for me. I use my pump to fill my two 55-gallon water storage barrels out at my main garden where I don't have running water.