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- #41
What am I doing wrong? o.o
- Thread starter BeccaB00
- Start date
Honest, it is not something to be all
about, it is just something to work very hard and frequently on, in a systematic manner, and it will get better. YOu have to be systematic though. You can't be skipping ahead or expecting too much too soon.
(e.t.a - I know a bunch of people with happy well-behaved border collies. They fall into three pretty clean groups and not much else. 1) there are people whose BCs have jobs, like herding or agility/flyball/etc. Then 2) there are people whose BCs live outside most of the time and do whatever they please and invent their own jobs like "killing woodchucks, burying them somewhere, then exhuming them two weeks later to roll in". Since neither of these things seems like an option for you, I would recommend you head towards the other group 3) people who have convinced their BCs that their job is to follow their owner (or other people) around and stare at them in that creepy way, not just in hopes of being asked to chase a ball or do a trick (although there is always that hope) but just because staring at people IS the dog's job. I know of one person for whom this just worked out that way on its own, but the others had to actually train it. Their dogs seem happy though, maybe not as happy as if they were off bossing sheep around 10 hrs a day but certainly happy and well-behaved *enough*.)
Pat
(e.t.a - I know a bunch of people with happy well-behaved border collies. They fall into three pretty clean groups and not much else. 1) there are people whose BCs have jobs, like herding or agility/flyball/etc. Then 2) there are people whose BCs live outside most of the time and do whatever they please and invent their own jobs like "killing woodchucks, burying them somewhere, then exhuming them two weeks later to roll in". Since neither of these things seems like an option for you, I would recommend you head towards the other group 3) people who have convinced their BCs that their job is to follow their owner (or other people) around and stare at them in that creepy way, not just in hopes of being asked to chase a ball or do a trick (although there is always that hope) but just because staring at people IS the dog's job. I know of one person for whom this just worked out that way on its own, but the others had to actually train it. Their dogs seem happy though, maybe not as happy as if they were off bossing sheep around 10 hrs a day but certainly happy and well-behaved *enough*.)
Pat
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- Jul 26, 2010
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Pat is right, and Becca, I gotta say, you may be getting the kind of touchy feely responses you want here now, but it isn't going to help this situation.
'When the sun trines Jupiter and there's nothing else to do', is NOT 'knows a command'. Not even close. If the dog knows the command, you can use it - I mean actually USE it - in a practical situation. Like, dog is tearing around about to crash into someone - 'SIT!' Dog instantly sits and doesn't crash into person. Sorta does it when I have a treat and the door is closed and we're in a very small room with nothing else in it - Dog does not know the command.
Again, this is not about training with distractions vs no distractions. This is not clicker territory, either. This is not going to be solved by ONLY giving rewards. That has already been amply proven. You even said before that the dog jumps up and claws you when you try to give it a treat to teach it something! You're giving two very very different versions of what's going on.
Exercise, discipline and affection. And pretty much in that order.
'When the sun trines Jupiter and there's nothing else to do', is NOT 'knows a command'. Not even close. If the dog knows the command, you can use it - I mean actually USE it - in a practical situation. Like, dog is tearing around about to crash into someone - 'SIT!' Dog instantly sits and doesn't crash into person. Sorta does it when I have a treat and the door is closed and we're in a very small room with nothing else in it - Dog does not know the command.
Again, this is not about training with distractions vs no distractions. This is not clicker territory, either. This is not going to be solved by ONLY giving rewards. That has already been amply proven. You even said before that the dog jumps up and claws you when you try to give it a treat to teach it something! You're giving two very very different versions of what's going on.
Exercise, discipline and affection. And pretty much in that order.
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I am not convinced about the "is not going to be solved by only giving rewards". I have known enough problematic dogs turned into extremely civilized individuals through nothing other than mark-and-reward type training, and it has worked well enough on Russell (who did start as a bit of a hooligan, although certainly not likely to match a BC-cattledog cross in that regard), that I am skeptical that there are many (if any) dogs for whom active punishment is needed.
But I agree with welsummerchicks (I think?) that the MAIN ISSUE here is not clicker vs no clicker, nor distractions vs no distractions, nor what if any rewards you are using.
The MAIN ISSUE in my opinion is thinking through what your expectations are, getting them more in line with reality, using management to prevent real big problems for the time being, and then systematically training better behavior first in the easiest situations and then in progressively more challenging ones.
There is no magic wand.
JMHO,
Pat
I am not convinced about the "is not going to be solved by only giving rewards". I have known enough problematic dogs turned into extremely civilized individuals through nothing other than mark-and-reward type training, and it has worked well enough on Russell (who did start as a bit of a hooligan, although certainly not likely to match a BC-cattledog cross in that regard), that I am skeptical that there are many (if any) dogs for whom active punishment is needed.
But I agree with welsummerchicks (I think?) that the MAIN ISSUE here is not clicker vs no clicker, nor distractions vs no distractions, nor what if any rewards you are using.
The MAIN ISSUE in my opinion is thinking through what your expectations are, getting them more in line with reality, using management to prevent real big problems for the time being, and then systematically training better behavior first in the easiest situations and then in progressively more challenging ones.
There is no magic wand.
JMHO,
Pat
- Thread starter
- #45
I know. I'm not asking for a magical wand, nor am I asking for
somone to give me the magic potion for a calm well behaved dog.
She done well today. Is it ok to use toys to train them? Today after
training with her I threw her favorite toy, and as soon as she went to
get it I said sit and she turned around towards me and sat down.
Thats good right? Should I use her toy to do this though?
somone to give me the magic potion for a calm well behaved dog.
She done well today. Is it ok to use toys to train them? Today after
training with her I threw her favorite toy, and as soon as she went to
get it I said sit and she turned around towards me and sat down.
Thats good right? Should I use her toy to do this though?
Lots of people use toys as rewards in training. In fact agility people seem to mostly prefer them (toys or tugs) and look down on food rewards.
But make sure you are not doing it backwards. (I am unclear on how you are thinking about this). You mentioned throwing her toy after a training session and she went after it and then you said sit and she stopped going after the toy and sat. This is all well and fine as a test of her 'sit' under those conditions but it is not USING the toy. USING it to train with would be more like, you say sit, she sits, then you say 'yay, good girl, go get the toy!' and toss it to her to play with for a minute. Note this only works if you can easily get the toy BACK from her afterwards. Seriously
A reward can be anything she likes that you can control well enough. Russie's reward for stuff we do outside is often to be sent to go sniff vole trails
Just make sure you can manage it and the dog is willing to give it up in order to let you give (and then reward for) the NEXT command. So for a dog that runs away when off leash, letting him off leash would be a BAD reward, because it would tend to end the training session
Pat
But make sure you are not doing it backwards. (I am unclear on how you are thinking about this). You mentioned throwing her toy after a training session and she went after it and then you said sit and she stopped going after the toy and sat. This is all well and fine as a test of her 'sit' under those conditions but it is not USING the toy. USING it to train with would be more like, you say sit, she sits, then you say 'yay, good girl, go get the toy!' and toss it to her to play with for a minute. Note this only works if you can easily get the toy BACK from her afterwards. Seriously
A reward can be anything she likes that you can control well enough. Russie's reward for stuff we do outside is often to be sent to go sniff vole trails
Pat
drug, arson, cadaver, and rescue dogs all get to play 'tuggies' when they do their job. (the sent trailing dogs usually get food rewards)
In guide dog puppy raising we never used food rewards (and there are collies in the program) -except 'come'- (which we were allowed to use food reward) all other commands were given and physically/ verbally rewarded - or forced to comply then verbally rewarded.
You know, 'Jack, Sit' *I make him sit, sence he didn't start to sit in 0.5 seconds* 'Good Jack, good sit'
over and over and over and over inside/outside with kids we bribed around, with balls being thrown with cats around...
the goal is NEVER having to repeat your commands.
Repeating your command w/o enforcing it teaches - its ok not to listen to alpha/mommy she'll just give me a second, third, fourth, many try...
Each time you allow him (in your case her) to disobey a command she learns that there is no reason to do it the first time.
This is much easier on puppies because they are easier to physically control -and- have not learned to have 'selective hearing'
--going to post a youtube video but It would look like I mean its the OP, and I don't want that because I don't think that's what's going on. but its a cute vid too bad it has bad words... 'dog trainer vs dog owner youtube' ---
In guide dog puppy raising we never used food rewards (and there are collies in the program) -except 'come'- (which we were allowed to use food reward) all other commands were given and physically/ verbally rewarded - or forced to comply then verbally rewarded.
You know, 'Jack, Sit' *I make him sit, sence he didn't start to sit in 0.5 seconds* 'Good Jack, good sit'
over and over and over and over inside/outside with kids we bribed around, with balls being thrown with cats around...
the goal is NEVER having to repeat your commands.
Repeating your command w/o enforcing it teaches - its ok not to listen to alpha/mommy she'll just give me a second, third, fourth, many try...
Each time you allow him (in your case her) to disobey a command she learns that there is no reason to do it the first time.
This is much easier on puppies because they are easier to physically control -and- have not learned to have 'selective hearing'
--going to post a youtube video but It would look like I mean its the OP, and I don't want that because I don't think that's what's going on. but its a cute vid too bad it has bad words... 'dog trainer vs dog owner youtube' ---
- Jul 26, 2010
- 2,969
- 4
- 171
Pat, I don't think reward-only works unless the relationship is sound - but to be very frank, 'punishment' can be a look, a body language, it isn't like 'punishment' means beating the dog with a stick every time it twitches its ear. Even 'punishment' can be very subtle and very non physical. Call it a 'correction', a 're-establishment of the leader role', 'body language', call it 'bluff and a lot of drama', call it 'projecting a certain energy', call it withdrawing of attention, call it very subtle positioning of the body...
And I think there is a LOT more going on between a dog and a trainer than what is obvious - you've had one dog for a few months and there is an awful lot more to see yet - not everything that goes on is obviously one thing or another, anyway. The most effective methods involve more than one effect and have a great deal of economy.
And no, the repair to the relationship is very, very different from 'stopping dog from clawing, smashing right now', etc.
But this dog needs to be 'punished' for jumping, clawing, smashing into people, and things like that. The behavior needs to stop, immediately, today, right now - the longer it goes on, the harder it is to eradicate.
What is 'punishment'? Whatever works in that situation, and not one iota more.
And I think there is a LOT more going on between a dog and a trainer than what is obvious - you've had one dog for a few months and there is an awful lot more to see yet - not everything that goes on is obviously one thing or another, anyway. The most effective methods involve more than one effect and have a great deal of economy.
And no, the repair to the relationship is very, very different from 'stopping dog from clawing, smashing right now', etc.
But this dog needs to be 'punished' for jumping, clawing, smashing into people, and things like that. The behavior needs to stop, immediately, today, right now - the longer it goes on, the harder it is to eradicate.
What is 'punishment'? Whatever works in that situation, and not one iota more.
Yesterday I took Lola to the beach and she didn't come when I called. I walked over to her and punished her. A bunch of people she was hiding behind said to me, "It's okay, she can be there!" .... not the point. Their dog was rambuctious and hyper and wouldn't listen AT ALL. The fact mine didn't listen ONCE got it punished and suuuuure enough - the next time she *thought* about doing it (I saw her little mind click) and I growled, "Lola... COME. NOW!" she knew better. Oh yes, she knew better. And she was at my feet in seconds - on a beach, with strange dogs, near water and sticks and horse poo (all her favourites).
Yeah it sucked to have to get out of the water and walk all the way over to Lola to punish her for not coming but it's what I -had- to do at that moment. She was my dog at a dog beach and she was not listening... what if she continued to not listen and went into the beach parking lot with that other dog? And when they say stop and he doesn't.. and when I say stop and she does... who's gonna have a dog?
And by punish I simply mean I forced her to the ground (it doesn't take much), grabbed her by the scruff and looked at her in the eyes and said, "NO. BAD DOG. BAD LOLA. You LISTEN to me, got it?"
My point with this whole story was the other couple, actually - who tried to defend my dog not listening to me. "It's okay! She's not bothering anyone." NO excuses. NONE. No, "Well she jumped on the couch but it's okay it was dirty anyway." Unless I say COUCH, nobody goes on the couch - or they get punished. Well, they just don't now. If I said to them, "Oh she's not bothering you... well that's okay then!" and walked off.. my dog would continue to not listen to me. Why should she when she doesn't get in trouble, can do what she wants and gets to play in the sand?
This is what people mean by not 'letting' them do things. Oh she does it anyway... yeah... ONCE. That's all it should take. You have her trick trained - but not behaviour trained. You're too lenient with the punishment and probably to shallow with the treats. Sometimes in order to get the dog to learn you have to be the bad guy, even in front of your friends. Don't get me wrong, I feel EVIL when I have to punish my dog in public. People stare like I'm some sort of monster. Like I'm supposed to punish her in private or something??? I don't beat her, but I do growl and stand over her and make it known I'm boss. Sometimes I push her over with my foot so she submits. You have to. You have to look like an arse sometimes. You have to be firm all the time. You somtimes have to walk across a 300 metre beach in sand to chase your dog down to punish her for not coming. It sucks and it's annoying - but it's what you have to do.
Slam into legs? Gone, bye, outside, bad dog, don't want you anymore.
Watch for the nipping - that can quickly turn into our dog being put down. THAT is the importance of this training. Do you want to 'try'... or do you want to keep your dog alive?
Yeah it sucked to have to get out of the water and walk all the way over to Lola to punish her for not coming but it's what I -had- to do at that moment. She was my dog at a dog beach and she was not listening... what if she continued to not listen and went into the beach parking lot with that other dog? And when they say stop and he doesn't.. and when I say stop and she does... who's gonna have a dog?
And by punish I simply mean I forced her to the ground (it doesn't take much), grabbed her by the scruff and looked at her in the eyes and said, "NO. BAD DOG. BAD LOLA. You LISTEN to me, got it?"
My point with this whole story was the other couple, actually - who tried to defend my dog not listening to me. "It's okay! She's not bothering anyone." NO excuses. NONE. No, "Well she jumped on the couch but it's okay it was dirty anyway." Unless I say COUCH, nobody goes on the couch - or they get punished. Well, they just don't now. If I said to them, "Oh she's not bothering you... well that's okay then!" and walked off.. my dog would continue to not listen to me. Why should she when she doesn't get in trouble, can do what she wants and gets to play in the sand?
This is what people mean by not 'letting' them do things. Oh she does it anyway... yeah... ONCE. That's all it should take. You have her trick trained - but not behaviour trained. You're too lenient with the punishment and probably to shallow with the treats. Sometimes in order to get the dog to learn you have to be the bad guy, even in front of your friends. Don't get me wrong, I feel EVIL when I have to punish my dog in public. People stare like I'm some sort of monster. Like I'm supposed to punish her in private or something??? I don't beat her, but I do growl and stand over her and make it known I'm boss. Sometimes I push her over with my foot so she submits. You have to. You have to look like an arse sometimes. You have to be firm all the time. You somtimes have to walk across a 300 metre beach in sand to chase your dog down to punish her for not coming. It sucks and it's annoying - but it's what you have to do.
Slam into legs? Gone, bye, outside, bad dog, don't want you anymore.
Watch for the nipping - that can quickly turn into our dog being put down. THAT is the importance of this training. Do you want to 'try'... or do you want to keep your dog alive?
Quote:
I should've just said ^this post^ instead of writing forever, hahaha.
I should've just said ^this post^ instead of writing forever, hahaha.
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