What are Lavender Orpington chicks supposed to look like?

[ColtHandorf]

Thank you for your detailed response (and funny gifs)! My birds are pets and I don't breed them, so even though I love the English look, the extent of their Englishness is not really a big deal for me.

lol You're welcome.

What I was trying to figure out, and maybe am not wording very clearly, is if there's an actual problem with my pullet's feathers - like the shredding gene look, or something else with her health, because that's what the breeder keeps telling me, and that's what I have a hard time identifying. English looks aside, do you think her feathers look unhealthy? The breeder says she looks bad health-wise, but she looks okay to my very untrained eye. I'll try to get more pictures later today.

Her feathers do not look "unhealthy." It's entirely possible that she does have some shredding going on.

For comparison - this is one of the cockerels. I do see it on him - his feathers, especially towards the back and the tail, look wrong. They almost look wet, except that they are not. Kind of shriveled and ragged looking.

The cockerels certainly have the shredding gene, as is evident in the feathers. Males tend to show this more than females, at least until they begin breeding, when the females will show extensive shredding from the males mounting them and damaging their feathers.

The pullet looks a lot better by comparison, but maybe still not healthy enough? Only my lavenders have ever looked like that, and they looked like that since they first feathered out, that was just always their look.

She will probably show minimal shredding in her feathers when she is mature.

Here are the breeder's official pictures from her website:

They are definitely English-type Orpingtons. So you've not been duped there. Does she mention having Black Orpingtons? Or the possibility of you hatching splits from the eggs? Meaning she has Black stock to breed the Lavenders to in order to improve their feather quality. That is the preferred method of breeding and improving/maintaining feather quality in Lavenders. Many people do not do this as Blacks and Blacks carrying the Lavender gene don't sell as well because they aren't visually Lavender.

And a picture she sent me of birds that somebody hatched from her eggs:

She admits that the one on the left has some split feathers on her tail, but says mine is worse and it's environmental

Both of those females show some feather shredding, which could be from breeding, but also probably stems from Lavender x Lavender breeding.

 

[SourRoses]

@ColtHandorf that entrance was awesome
OP ... I am not as experienced, but I see some stress barring in her feathers. Those little lines. That might have been what she was talking about?

According to what I read in another thread, in other colors stress barring is serious because it shows times the feathers stopped growing. But in Lavenders the same gene(s) that causes feather shredding can also cause the stress barring, so it usually has no health implications. The shredding often shows up later in pullets.

That breeder's choice photogenic hen also has shredding, it's in her saddle area. And as ColtHandorf said, both of those example progeny have it.

I'm glad you made this thread because I wanted to talk about this too. I've been scouring the internet for a source of Lav English Orps that don't have shredding and I can't find one. All the best and most recommended breeders, upon blowing up their pics, it's right there.
I have two Mottled English Lavender 3 month olds that are just recently showing the shredding (ugh!) and I thought I was going to have to replace them. But if there's not better to be found I guess I'll just breed it out with the blacks.

The way the breeder turned it back on you was, IMO, really wrong. She must not be used to people calling her on the quality of her birds. I think it's quite fine to sell birds that are "in progress" as long as you disclose to the customer what faults you are seeing. And she surely has seen a lot of this in her own hatches.

 

[SourRoses]

Here, I cropped your pic to show the stress barring better...

And here we see the Breeders hen saddle area with shredding. She is likely the Breeders very best hen.

 

[K0k0shka]

Wow, @ColtHandorf , that response was so much more informative, nuanced and polite than what I've gotten from the breeder! You seem to know a lot more about this than she does. And she claims she's been breeding chickens for 20 years, with a focus on English Orpingtons! She swears she's never seen anything like my chicks in her two decades of experience, and that it's on me. She also said that her lavenders don't have the shredding gene, and that what I'm seeing on the cockerels is environmental. From what I've read, the shredding gene is related to the color and I don't even know if any lavenders exist that are completely free from it, it's just a matter of how much it's expressed, right? So for her to flat out deny that hers have it, raised a red flag for me.

Up until I posted here, I was willing to trust her word and assume it was something I was doing, because I don't know enough about lavenders or genetics to form a more informed opinion. But the way you guys are explaining it, at the very least it's making me question her attitude (and knowledge). She has a bit of an air of self importance. Normally I wouldn't care, since this is all so low stakes. Got some pet chickens, no big deal. But that's been a lot of blame throwing, a lot of denying, and not a lot of actual explanation, and it just doesn't feel right. I was thinking of getting eggs from her again next year (different color), but maybe now I'll reconsider. The trouble is that she's the only breeder who has English Orpingtons within driving distance of me, and I really don't want to buy shipped eggs again, but who knows, maybe I will... Are you selling?

The cockerels certainly have the shredding gene, as is evident in the feathers. Males tend to show this more than females, at least until they begin breeding, when the females will show extensive shredding from the males mounting them and damaging their feathers.

I asked her this, too - since my males were so much worse than the female, does that mean there's a difference in expression between the genders. But she shut me down by insisting that her birds don't have the shredding gene, and didn't actually answer the question. So thank you for answering it without me even asking! Luckily for this chick, she'll never be mounted as I don't have males and don't plan on ever keeping any, so that's one point in her feathers' favor.

Does she mention having Black Orpingtons? Or the possibility of you hatching splits from the eggs? Meaning she has Black stock to breed the Lavenders to in order to improve their feather quality. That is the preferred method of breeding and improving/maintaining feather quality in Lavenders. Many people do not do this as Blacks and Blacks carrying the Lavender gene don't sell as well because they aren't visually Lavender.

Yes, she breeds to black and warned me that I might get some black chicks from a lav/split pairing, but I didn't get any.

 

[K0k0shka]

@ColtHandorf that entrance was awesome
OP ... I am not as experienced, but I see some stress barring in her feathers. Those little lines. That might have been what she was talking about?

According to what I read in another thread, in other colors stress barring is serious because it shows times the feathers stopped growing. But in Lavenders the same gene(s) that causes feather shredding can also cause the stress barring, so it usually has no health implications. The shredding often shows up later in pullets.

That breeder's choice photogenic hen also has shredding, it's in her saddle area. And as ColtHandorf said, both of those example progeny have it.

I'm glad you made this thread because I wanted to talk about this too. I've been scouring the internet for a source of Lav English Orps that don't have shredding and I can't find one. All the best and most recommended breeders, upon blowing up their pics, it's right there.
I have two Mottled English Lavender 3 month olds that are just recently showing the shredding (ugh!) and I thought I was going to have to replace them. But if there's not better to be found I guess I'll just breed it out with the blacks.

The way the breeder turned it back on you was, IMO, really wrong. She must not be used to people calling her on the quality of her birds. I think it's quite fine to sell birds that are "in progress" as long as you disclose to the customer what faults you are seeing. And she surely has seen a lot of this in her own hatches.

Thank you for the very helpful and polite explanation! I didn't know about stress barring, but I see what you mean and it makes sense. I can't say these chicks have been stressed in any way. They hatched with the flock and had two moms taking care of them, it was adorable. My flock is very peaceful, so no bullying or drama. I pamper my chickens because they are pets, so they had a good life. And, most importantly, my other, non-lavender English Orpingtons look just fine, so the environment claim was always sketchy to me. I didn't want to get into lavenders at all, precisely because of what I've read and heard about them - like you said, hard to find good ones - but that was the only color she had available, she's the only one local, and I didn't want shipped eggs again. I don't need show/breeding quality birds so it doesn't actually matter that much, as long as they are healthy and don't look TOO bad My problem here is with the breeder's attitude, mostly. And I wanted a second (and third and fourth) opinion so I can judge whether she's crazy, or whether I am, haha. The breeder I got my other Orps from (shipped eggs) is very upfront and honest about his birds, admits that a lot of them are project breeds and colors and may not look 100%. I appreciate that. Most of my birds from him fail to meet the standard - some spectacularly so - but I don't care. They are sweet and pretty and that's what I care about. But I also care about how I'm being treated, so maybe I won't go back to that lady after all.

 

[Faraday40]

Arriving late to the party. Others have already explained what I would say. I will add that the breeder has very nice birds but a not so nice attitude. Everyone continues to learn throughout life, so her resistance to listening and helping you is bad on her part.
Flaws are more easily seen in male offspring. There is a standard of perfection which everyone strives towards, but no bird is perfect. As a breeder, she should want to know about possible faults in order to continue to improve her flock. I love it when people send me photos of how my birds turned out.

Chickens molt and change appearance a lot during their 1st year. English Orps can be especially awkward-looking while growing up. In the long run, I think you'll love the final outcome. If the price is right and you can deal with her negative personality, local hatching eggs are best. If not, there are plenty of good breeders who ship eggs.

I would avoid hatcheries that have English orps. Some friends ordered some through her feed store. Although they're technically English Jubilee Orps, they're not the beautiful birds they were hoping for.

 

[Vickischics]

Neither of you are reading the original post very thoroughly English, all of them - young and old.

WOW!

 

[K0k0shka]

Arriving late to the party. Others have already explained what I would say. I will add that the breeder has very nice birds but a not so nice attitude. Everyone continues to learn throughout life, so her resistance to listening and helping you is bad on her part.
Flaws are more easily seen in male offspring. There is a standard of perfection which everyone strives towards, but no bird is perfect. As a breeder, she should want to know about possible faults in order to continue to improve her flock. I love it when people send me photos of how my birds turned out.

I always send my breeders pictures of how the birds turned out, with a short description. Especially if they are project breeds, I would imagine they'd want to know how they turned out. More data points = learning and improvement = better outcomes next time. But one has to be open to learning, I guess...

If the price is right and you can deal with her negative personality, local hatching eggs are best. If not, there are plenty of good breeders who ship eggs.

I don't know... The price is kind of high, which by itself would not have been a dealbreaker if not for the attitude. Our conversation really soured today and she declared herself "done". Just because I asked for pictures... Looks like there are shipped eggs in my future!

I would avoid hatcheries that have English orps. Some friends ordered some through her feed store. Although they're technically English Jubilee Orps, they're not the beautiful birds they were hoping for.

Oh I don't want hatchery chickens. I've heard enough about those Not that breeders are any guarantee, but at least most of them care about what they do, and have better quality birds. This lady cares about what she does, I don't fault her there, but maybe she cares a little too much... So much that she can't admit any flaws. I respect taking pride in what you do, but it's even better when you can admit that not everything is the other person's fault.

 

[ColtHandorf]

@ColtHandorf that entrance was awesome

My signature when I've been summoned.

Wow, @ColtHandorf , that response was so much more informative, nuanced and polite than what I've gotten from the breeder! You seem to know a lot more about this than she does. And she claims she's been breeding chickens for 20 years, with a focus on English Orpingtons! She swears she's never seen anything like my chicks in her two decades of experience, and that it's on me. She also said that her lavenders don't have the shredding gene, and that what I'm seeing on the cockerels is environmental. From what I've read, the shredding gene is related to the color and I don't even know if any lavenders exist that are completely free from it, it's just a matter of how much it's expressed, right? So for her to flat out deny that hers have it, raised a red flag for me.

There are some Lavenders that appear to not have shredding, but it is very rare indeed. @The Moonshiner has a lot of thoughts on the linkage between the Lavender gene and shredding and how best to improve feather quality.

I definitely don't think that it's environmental. I think it is genetic. However, the environment can contribute to damage of the delicate feathers with improper/weak structure.

To deny her birds have it at all is absurd.

Up until I posted here, I was willing to trust her word and assume it was something I was doing, because I don't know enough about lavenders or genetics to form a more informed opinion. But the way you guys are explaining it, at the very least it's making me question her attitude (and knowledge). She has a bit of an air of self importance. Normally I wouldn't care, since this is all so low stakes. Got some pet chickens, no big deal. But that's been a lot of blame throwing, a lot of denying, and not a lot of actual explanation, and it just doesn't feel right. I was thinking of getting eggs from her again next year (different color), but maybe now I'll reconsider. The trouble is that she's the only breeder who has English Orpingtons within driving distance of me, and I really don't want to buy shipped eggs again, but who knows, maybe I will... Are you selling?

I do sell eggs, although, with temperatures here in Texas, I won't even eat the eggs I'm collecting. They are developing in the nest boxes.

I asked her this, too - since my males were so much worse than the female, does that mean there's a difference in expression between the genders. But she shut me down by insisting that her birds don't have the shredding gene, and didn't actually answer the question. So thank you for answering it without me even asking! Luckily for this chick, she'll never be mounted as I don't have males and don't plan on ever keeping any, so that's one point in her feathers' favor.

I think she'll be a pretty thing. I've seen way, way worse.

Yes, she breeds to black and warned me that I might get some black chicks from a lav/split pairing, but I didn't get any.

Interesting. I don't think she does very often. And I'd hazard yours came from a Lav x Lav pairing.

I would avoid hatcheries that have English orps. Some friends ordered some through her feed store. Although they're technically English Jubilee Orps, they're not the beautiful birds they were hoping for.

Jubilee are hard enough without getting them from a hatchery. I go back and forth if I ever want to get them because some are beautiful, and some look like garbage. Even if they are the correct English type, their markings are just icky. Or they are too light in color.

I don't know... The price is kind of high, which by itself would not have been a dealbreaker if not for the attitude. Our conversation really soured today and she declared herself "done". Just because I asked for pictures... Looks like there are shipped eggs in my future!

That's so silly of her. I always try to make sure my customers are happy. I've even driven an hour or more to bring replacement chicks to someone if they die in the first 48 hours of being home.

I always send my breeders pictures of how the birds turned out, with a short description. Especially if they are project breeds, I would imagine they'd want to know how they turned out. More data points = learning and improvement = better outcomes next time. But one has to be open to learning, I guess...

That's very sweet of you. I'm sure they appreciate it.

Oh I don't want hatchery chickens. I've heard enough about those Not that breeders are any guarantee, but at least most of them care about what they do, and have better quality birds. This lady cares about what she does, I don't fault her there, but maybe she cares a little too much... So much that she can't admit any flaws. I respect taking pride in what you do, but it's even better when you can admit that not everything is the other person's fault.

Yeah, I'm a snob, lol, But at least I know when my birds need work.

 

[K0k0shka]

I do sell eggs, although, with temperatures here in Texas, I won't even eat the eggs I'm collecting. They are developing in the nest boxes.

They would develop in my nesting boxes too - even up here in the north we've been in the 90s for WEEKS
If I get more eggs, it would be in the spring. Do you have a website? I have a vague memory of a website (that I used to stalk periodically to salivate over your orps), but maybe it was just the facebook page?