What is a "treat" to you?

[BrandonsBirbs]

Two part answer. Maybe three part.

One) You have to understand what your bird's target diet is.
Two) You have to know what its getting from its complete feed
Three) you need a source of reliable (or at least consistent) information about the nutritional value of whatever you are feeding as a treat. Then you can calculate potential effects.

I start at Feedipedia.org. NOT because its right, but because its robust. Wait, its not right??? NOPE. Nor does it claim to be. Feedipedia uses averages* based on testing - and the problem with averages is that they tell you nothing about the individual ingredient you hold in your hand. But its free, its consistent, and its a start.

So, going to my favorite first source, and putting in "Cucumber", I find it has no information for that as a feed ingredient in its standard format tables. But it does mention this, "Performance and economical efficiency of growing New Zealand White rabbit fed cucumber (Cucumis sativus l.) vines straw without or with some feed additives under Egyptian conditions" That could be interesting. (Google search turns up nothing but an abstract. BAH!). There is also this, "Effects of replacing clover hay by cucumber (Cucumis sativus L.) vines straw without or with natuzyme or prebiotic" (same study, different author listed first - again, no hits).

Next, you can look to the USDA. Raw Cucumber. 95% water. 0.65% protein, 0.1% fat, 0.5% fiber. Not a significant source of calcium (16mg / 100g), not a useful source of pohosphorus (chickens can't use phytate, meaning plant-based, phosphorus). Some potassium, a tiny bit of selenium (micro grams, but chickens don't need much), and because the protein is so low, you can ignore the amino acid balance of that protein.
Basically, its flavored water with some fiber, some carbs, and some trace salts.

After that, its Google Scholar and start reading. (Mostly articles about using chicken manure/compost to feed cucumbers)

Simple. This is how I'm teaching myself.




*Feedipedia is better than many in that, after publishing the average, they also publish the max, the minimum, the standard deviation, and the number of samples tested - so if you see "6" or "3" or "1" for samples tested, you know the data isn't very reliable. And if you see an SD of 7.6 (look at Calcium), you know the presence of that component is highly variable.

Feedipedia looks like a fabulous resource, thank you!

So about:
93% water
0.03% protein
0.005% fat
<0.005% calcium
0.004% potassium

Seems like they will not affect diet very much! Glad I am not causing any issues just giving them some extra water!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I think one might need to have a comprehensive soil test as well if one goes down into the digits behind the comma for homegrown feed.
what soil the plants grow in is also important, not just the species-specific averages.

if your soil does not contain X or Y, the plant can't absorb it either.

Yes, I had mine done recently.

One of the limits of home grown feed recipes is that you can't have any idea where your plants fall, relative to averages. And many useful species change over the season and seed development, become more or less nutritious, and sometimes focusing anti nutritional factors into one area of the plant or another as it grows. Sudangrass is a great example.

 

[Shadrach]

As @Percheron chick says above, anything not a complete feed is a TREAT. It doesn't matter if its considered "healthy" in moderation or not - its a potential source of dietary imbalance.

This doesn't make any sense. If this was even remotely realistic then grass, bugs, herbs, insects etc all become treats. I've known chickens that live on treats in this case and they were extremely healthy and long lived.
Applying a bit of science is usually a sensible approach; dogma like this is dangerous and misleading.
How about we settle for a definition of a treat as anything that is given by the keeper that is not a componant of their regular feed? This way we could encompass many of the different feeding arrangements that don't rely on commercialy produced feed.

 

[3KillerBs]

how do you know that chicken's get bored?

When people ask about "boredom busters" I like to suggest that they give their chickens more opportunity to engage in natural chicken behaviors.

Foraging is a natural behavior, of course, but a handful of pellets thrown into the bedding will encourage that.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

This doesn't make any sense. If this was even remotely realistic then grass, bugs, herbs, insects etc all become treats. I've known chickens that live on treats in this case and they were extremely healthy and long lived.
Applying a bit of science is usually a sensible approach; dogma like this is dangerous and misleading.
How about we settle for a definition of a treat as anything that is given by the keeper that is not a componant of their regular feed? This way we could encompass many of the different feeding arrangements that don't rely on commercialy produced feed.

Selecting for an example which in no way represents the experience of the very vast majority of backyard owners and then crying "fowl" (haha, I see what I did there) is misleading. The vast majority of users on these forums don't have feral flocks of free range birds. Most seem to have a vanity flock of primarily laying hens stuck in an enclosed house and run. Your anecdote is not data, and is certainly not useful data applicable to the majority of backyard owners.

As you yourself acknowledged, the vast majority of people don't have chickens suited to free ranging, nor do they have enough land for it.

You and I had an exchange about 10 days ago, it seems a little early to engage in hyperbole when seemingly attacking one of my posts on nutrition. Perhaps there is some language barrier which contributes to the misunderstanding.

Regardless, I stand by my statement - anything not complete feed is a POTENTIAL (my word, which you quoted) source of dietary imbalance.

and FWIW, I free range my birds. They have constant access to my acres of weeds, and I check vie external and internal examination my flock's condition nutritionally roughly every 10 days to two weeks - I'll be doing more of it this weekend. During the best months (as now), its saves me about 35% on my feed bill. In winter, its maybe 10% - but I won't pretend my situation is representative of the very vast majority of "backyard" chicken owners, here or elsewhere.

 

[Shadrach]

As a person who is keen on some data perhaps you would care to supply some for the above assertion that the majority of contributors on this forum confine their chickens to the coop and run only.

I don't know how representitive the contributors I read about are but the majority of them while mainly keeping their chickens in a coop and run, let them out when they can for some so called free ranging time. That's the 10% rule made a nonsense of.

In my opinion we need a better definition of what is and what isn't a treat.
I proposed such a definition and asked what you thought.

I admire the efforts you've made in your research on nutrition for chickens but in many cases it just isn't relevant. While this is very obviously at times an American forum with one of the many possible backyard chicken keeping models as standard there are contributors from all over the world who read and contribute to BYC who often have a different model of backyard chicken keeping
This is all I'm trying to point out.
There is no language problem. I speak good English for a Scot.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Its a funny way of asking.

Given the number of posts asking about feeding BSFL, Grubs, Mealworms, and the like - and how easily those dehydrated, nutrition dense sources from a bag can imbalance a diet, I'd be very hesitant to list "bugs" in any definition for fear do doing more damage than good. Likewise, corn is a common "component" of their regular feed, and also the primary component in most scratch. Another example of an ingredient fine in moderation, but whose excess can wreck a diet.

Simpler is better in this case, I believe.

How about?
"A treat is any foodstuff given by the keeper which is not a nutritionally complete feed"

I don't know how useful that is, but it seems to cover the various positions well.

and I'll see about digging up that data for you - I only follow a few forums, and may have a skewed dataset (or simply misremember).

 

[Shadrach]

That's better attempt than mine so I'm happy with that.
That will allow for any foraged foodstuffs and allow for foodstuffs such as fish and meat milk and eggs, if nutritionlally complete means contains the correct amino acids to make a complete protein for the species.

There is still the small problem of Calcium and the amount of fat (very important with confined chickens) for the majority of common laying hens but it's a start.

Edited to include fat.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Couldn't find the post I was looking for, so I'm seeking hard data. {Survey - everyone please participate}.

Thank you, sincerely thank you @Shadrach , for calling me on that assumption. Wish I could find the old poll.

 

[sals_chicks]

Wow.
This post got really scientific and complicated, which, as a scientist, I appreciate... . Having a complicated scientific mind is likely the cause of my overthinking this to begin with.

I believe I am feeding a really well balanced and nutritious feed to my flock. I am not worried about that. My chicks (first flock) are only about 7 weeks old, and honestly have only had small amounts of "treats" thus far - mostly just for "recall training." Nothing seems out of balance, and the girls are doing just fine.

Now that I have read through a variety of responses here, I guess what I would ask is this...

I intend to feed my veggie/greens/friut scraps to my chickens, but I would like to maintain balance as best I can, the majority of the time. Do you start with small servings, and work up to a whole cabbage (one example)? Or just go full in on a whole cabbage and see what happens?

I know if I ate a whole cabbage in one sitting, I would likely "not be in balance." So without much chicken experience thus far, I just dont know how to begin introducing "treats" without completely disrupting the balance.

Overthinking myself to the grave, and not apologizing for it, hahaha...