What peafowl do I have? And what does this wingband mean?

[KsKingBee]

I wrote ...
'The peachicks females will be of the color of the father (Cameo) and those females will be split purple and bronze and they will be double Factor White-Eye + a spalding mini level..'

It is not possible for a peahen to be split to any of the sex-linked colors.

 

[Dany12]

... so not split purple ! .... the purple gene has evaporated?
It's proven ... in real life ?

 

[KsKingBee]

... so not split purple ! .... the purple gene has evaporated?
It's proven ... in real life ?

Yes Dany, in real life.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Dark pied = 2 genes pied !
But he is more ... for me it's a pied ... why : the big white spots ON the wings! and some white feathers in the center of the tail.
Double Factor White-Eye = 2 genes white-eye ... why : Almost all the tail feathers have white eyes. If there was only 1 gene only part of the tail would be with white eyes.
Spalding : Young peachicks will be spalding but less than father because the mother is not spalding! at this level it counts for nothing!
Split blackshoulder : if the mother was also split blackshoulder it could give blackshoulder birds - I remind you that it need a gene BS coming from the father and a gene BS coming from the mother to show the BS pattern on the peachick !
The peachicks females will be of the color of the father (Cameo) and those females will be split purple and bronze and they will be double Factor White-Eye + a spalding mini level..The youn males will be Blue split cameo + purple + bronze with double Factor White-Eye.+ a spalding mini level.

In summary .... very bad work!
It is to make birds that look like nothing and that genetically are a disaster!

From what I've seen, homozygous pied, aka Dark Pied, birds will have symmetrical white markings and a white bib. Split to Pied birds will have just a few white wing feathers and a small white patch on the throat -- not quite a bib. When birds are "proper Pied", which is genetically having one copy of Pied and one copy of White, the white markings will show noticeable asymmetry, which I don't see in the birds pictured. Thus, I'm sticking with Dark Pied.

This wouldn't be "very bad work" or "genetically a disaster". If a Cameo male breeds a Purple hen, the sons will be capable of producing a few Peach daughters with hens of any color. If both parents are Double-Factor White-Eye, and also Dark Pied, that would mean producing a few Peach Dark-Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed birds. Those, paired with male Peach Silver Pied, would produce 50% Peach Silver Pied and 50% Peach Dark-Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed birds. Far from "genetically a disaster", they'd be very interesting genetically to other breeders.

Then, considering the sons would also be split to Bronze, makes them attractive to someone buying Indigo peafowl. An IB male split to Purple and Cameo and Bronze paired with an Indigo female would produce 25% Indigo offspring of both sexes, the rest being Purple daughters split to Bronze, Purple sons split to Bronze, Cameo daughters split to Bronze, IB sons split to Purple and Cameo and Bronze, a chance for some Peach daughters, etc.

<Edit -- ok, reading through this again, I realize the Bronze part comes in if the hen is split to Bronze. At first, I thought this meant Bronze was definitely a component. So take the previous paragraph as just one of my musings.>

And, btw, please take it easy with all the exclamation marks. I know English isn't your primary language, but using a period would more often suffice better. Exclamation points are for emphasis, and ending all your sentences with them comes across as "shouting" rather than "talking."

No disrespect intended......

 

[Rosa moschata]

Tanks for your response
What would be the Double-Factor white eye and Dark-pied mean? I’m sorry, I’m always learning new things everyday.

So as you think he is a Spalding Cameo Dark-Pied Double Factor White-Eye split Blackshoulder, what kind of chicks will he produce with the purple pied White eye possibly split to bronze hen ?

OK, the terms I use are meant to clearly identify genotypes, which is necessary when trying to predict offspring. White-Eyed is an incompletely-dominant trait. If a bird has one copy, there will be some white-centered ocelli feathers, but others that don't show white centers. This I'd refer to as "Single-Factored White-Eyed", but could also be called "split to White-Eyed". If a bird has two copies, there will be all or mostly-all ocelli with white centers.

The problem is that, in trade, "White-Eyed" as a term will be used for either "Single-Factored" or "Double-Factored", despite being different genetically. A "Single-Factored White-Eyed" will pass on the mutation to only half of its offspring, while a "Double-Factored" bird will pass it on to all. Pairing two "Single-Factored" birds would give 25% NOT White-Eyed, 50% Single-Factored White-Eyed, and 25% Double-Factor White-Eyed. Pairing two Double-Factored birds would give 100% Double-Factored offspring.



Now, here's the tricky part -- "Pied". What people call "Pied" in the trade is a bird about 50% splashed with white feathers, rather haphazardly. It turns out there are two mutations of the same gene -- one, when a bird has two copies, results in a white peafowl. That mutation is called White. The other, when a bird has two copies, results in a Dark Pied peafowl. That mutation is called Pied. See, the two are what are known as alleles -- two different versions, and in this case mutated versions, of the same gene. That means there are three possible versions for this gene -- Normal, Pied, and White. Since a bird can have only two copies, the possible combinations are:

Normal / Normal = Normal
Normal / Pied = Normal split to Pied (one or a very few white wing feathers, small white spot under beak)
Normal / White = Normal split to White (randomly-placed few white feathers, could be on wing or anywhere else, typically little or no white spot under beak, thus sometimes hard to distinguish from "Normal split to Pied")
Pied / Pied = Dark Pied (white symmetrical markings on wings, some white in center of back/tail/train, white bib)
White / White = White (solid white bird)
Pied / White = Pied (about 50% white bird, white markings random and typically not symmetrical)

If you are looking to produce Pied birds, one easy way is to cross White with Dark Pied. The result would be 100% Pied offspring. Most Dark Pied birds offered for sale are "by-products" of breeding Pied X Pied, since that pairing results in 25% Dark Pied, 50% Pied, and 25% White.

The same ratio applies to Silver Pied, which is essentially a Pied bird with two copies of White-Eye, i.e. Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed. But "Silver Pied" became the trade name. When Silver Pied X Silver Pied offspring are produced, you get 25% Dark Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed, 50% Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed (aka Silver Pied), and 25% White. Those White birds, however, will also be Double-Factor White-Eyed, but being White covers that up. Though they look just like "regular" White peafowl, genetically they will have the addition of two copies of White-Eyed. So Whites from Silver Pied breeding are different genetically than Whites from Pied breeding, and it's important to know which you're buying. Additionally, the White could be covering up other colors -- if you bred any color Silver Pied with another of the same, those 25% White birds will also be homozygous for that color. If, for example, a White male you buy came from Purple Silver Pied X Purple Silver Pied breeding, and you breed that White male with a hen of any other color, you'd find his daughters are all Purple. The lesson is that you can't see anything under the White, since White erases everything. But the genes are still there, regardless.

If you breed him to the hen, and get any White offspring, then I was wrong, and the birds are actually Pied. If they are both Dark Pied, there would be no White offspring -- all would have the same Dark Pied markings as the parents. If both parents are Double-Factor White-Eyed, then all offspring will be as well. If one parent is Single-Factor, then half the offspring will be Double-Factor and the other half Single-Factor. If the male is Cameo and the female is Purple, then all the daughters will be Cameo and all the sons will be IB in color, but split to Purple and Cameo. These IB split to Purple and Cameo sons would be valuable in that they'd produce a few Peach daughters when paired with a female of any color, as well as Purple, Cameo, and a few IB daughters. So don't think these IB sons are a "waste" by any means. If the hen is split to Bronze, then half the offspring will also be split to Bronze, and the other half won't be -- but you couldn't tell either way just by looking. That would be on top of everything I already mentioned.

 

[Rosa moschata]

I tried figuring out how the Pied complex works a long time ago -- and really it was just for the benefit of people here. I don't like the looks of asymmetrical white markings on animals. And when birds are capable of such beautiful natural patterns, it seems a shame to me to just "erase" them with white. Altering color, to my eye, can be attractive. But I'm just not keen on white patches.

Anyway, when I was learning about peafowl genetics years ago (as AquaEyes, my old username), I was also learning about Muscovy duck genetics. There's a mutation in Muscovies called Duclair, or Duclair Pied, and this seems to present similarly to Dark Pied in peafowl. In Mallard duck breeds, it's often referred to as the Magpie pattern, and so sometimes this term is also used for Muscovies. There was some discussion here.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/muscovy-genetic-question.582626/

There's also a White mutation in Muscovies, and it's also incompletely dominant -- Muscovies split to White will have random asymmetrical white patches, while having two copies results in an all-white bird. The difference seems to be that in Muscovies, Duclair (Pied) and White are not alleles, so Muscovies can have two copies of Duclair and one copy of White. The result is a bird with the symmetrical Duclair white markings, plus extra random asymmetrical white feathers added on. The problem is that, in the trade, the term "pied" is used for any Muscovy with white markings on the body. Usually, the birds are split to White, but they may also be Duclair or split to Duclair as well. Genetically, there's a difference -- Duclair X Duclair would not give any White offspring. Duclair split to White X Duclair split to White would give 25% White offspring.

On top of that, Muscovies also have a White Head mutation, which is basically incompletely dominant -- having one copy results in a duck whose head eventually turns white, while having two copies results in a duck whose head starts out white and stays white.

So this is why, when I see peafowl with limited-but-symmetrical white markings, I'm inclined to think they're Dark Pied. Though not the same mutation, Duclair in Muscovies and Pied in Peafowl seem to behave similarly when had homozygously.

And, btw, when I was posting about combining colors in peafowl all those years ago, it was inspired by what I was learning in Muscovies. There are combinations of the various color dilutions that are common enough to have been given names, so I wondered why the same wasn't going on with peafowl. I'm glad this species' breeders have caught up.

 

[KsKingBee]

@Rosa moschata I am always in total awe of your command of genetics and really enjoy reading your posts. One thing I would like to share with you is that we have now determined that a Dark Pied does not have to have any white feathers at all and yet is still Dark Pied. I have confirmed with at least four different breeders that have DP birds with no white, I have two such cocks now.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[Dany12]

... me too ! ... humm !

 

[Pratik1234]

OK, the terms I use are meant to clearly identify genotypes, which is necessary when trying to predict offspring. White-Eyed is an incompletely-dominant trait. If a bird has one copy, there will be some white-centered ocelli feathers, but others that don't show white centers. This I'd refer to as "Single-Factored White-Eyed", but could also be called "split to White-Eyed". If a bird has two copies, there will be all or mostly-all ocelli with white centers.

The problem is that, in trade, "White-Eyed" as a term will be used for either "Single-Factored" or "Double-Factored", despite being different genetically. A "Single-Factored White-Eyed" will pass on the mutation to only half of its offspring, while a "Double-Factored" bird will pass it on to all. Pairing two "Single-Factored" birds would give 25% NOT White-Eyed, 50% Single-Factored White-Eyed, and 25% Double-Factor White-Eyed. Pairing two Double-Factored birds would give 100% Double-Factored offspring.



Now, here's the tricky part -- "Pied". What people call "Pied" in the trade is a bird about 50% splashed with white feathers, rather haphazardly. It turns out there are two mutations of the same gene -- one, when a bird has two copies, results in a white peafowl. That mutation is called White. The other, when a bird has two copies, results in a Dark Pied peafowl. That mutation is called Pied. See, the two are what are known as alleles -- two different versions, and in this case mutated versions, of the same gene. That means there are three possible versions for this gene -- Normal, Pied, and White. Since a bird can have only two copies, the possible combinations are:

Normal / Normal = Normal
Normal / Pied = Normal split to Pied (one or a very few white wing feathers, small white spot under beak)
Normal / White = Normal split to White (randomly-placed few white feathers, could be on wing or anywhere else, typically little or no white spot under beak, thus sometimes hard to distinguish from "Normal split to Pied")
Pied / Pied = Dark Pied (white symmetrical markings on wings, some white in center of back/tail/train, white bib)
White / White = White (solid white bird)
Pied / White = Pied (about 50% white bird, white markings random and typically not symmetrical)

If you are looking to produce Pied birds, one easy way is to cross White with Dark Pied. The result would be 100% Pied offspring. Most Dark Pied birds offered for sale are "by-products" of breeding Pied X Pied, since that pairing results in 25% Dark Pied, 50% Pied, and 25% White.

The same ratio applies to Silver Pied, which is essentially a Pied bird with two copies of White-Eye, i.e. Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed. But "Silver Pied" became the trade name. When Silver Pied X Silver Pied offspring are produced, you get 25% Dark Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed, 50% Pied Double-Factor White-Eyed (aka Silver Pied), and 25% White. Those White birds, however, will also be Double-Factor White-Eyed, but being White covers that up. Though they look just like "regular" White peafowl, genetically they will have the addition of two copies of White-Eyed. So Whites from Silver Pied breeding are different genetically than Whites from Pied breeding, and it's important to know which you're buying. Additionally, the White could be covering up other colors -- if you bred any color Silver Pied with another of the same, those 25% White birds will also be homozygous for that color. If, for example, a White male you buy came from Purple Silver Pied X Purple Silver Pied breeding, and you breed that White male with a hen of any other color, you'd find his daughters are all Purple. The lesson is that you can't see anything under the White, since White erases everything. But the genes are still there, regardless.

If you breed him to the hen, and get any White offspring, then I was wrong, and the birds are actually Pied. If they are both Dark Pied, there would be no White offspring -- all would have the same Dark Pied markings as the parents. If both parents are Double-Factor White-Eyed, then all offspring will be as well. If one parent is Single-Factor, then half the offspring will be Double-Factor and the other half Single-Factor. If the male is Cameo and the female is Purple, then all the daughters will be Cameo and all the sons will be IB in color, but split to Purple and Cameo. These IB split to Purple and Cameo sons would be valuable in that they'd produce a few Peach daughters when paired with a female of any color, as well as Purple, Cameo, and a few IB daughters. So don't think these IB sons are a "waste" by any means. If the hen is split to Bronze, then half the offspring will also be split to Bronze, and the other half won't be -- but you couldn't tell either way just by looking. That would be on top of everything I already mentioned.

Thanks for all the information. Really learned a lot from it. I’m excited to breed them together now and maybe add cameo and bronze hens to the flock.

 

[Rosa moschata]

@Rosa moschata I am always in total awe of your command of genetics and really enjoy reading your posts. One thing I would like to share with you is that we have now determined that a Dark Pied does not have to have any white feathers at all and yet is still Dark Pied. I have confirmed with at least four different breeders that have DP birds with no white, I have two such cocks now.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Thanks, and you're welcome!

I'm very curious about these no-white Dark Pied birds. Are they actually homozygous for Pied, or are they heterozygous for Pied? Navigating through peafowl genetics was tricky at first -- and still a bit now -- primarily because there isn't a standard convention for terminology among breeders. So I'm wondering if these birds might actually be just split to Pied. I suppose the proof would be if, among the Pied X Pied breedings, there are birds with no white feathers. If so, I wonder if there are more than just the Pied and White alleles -- perhaps there are other mutations of this same gene, varying in degrees of "erasing" capacities. It certainly wouldn't be unheard-of, since examples exist in other species.

Yet another reason I'm really not a fan of these white mutations. About the only exception would be the addition of White-Eye to one of the shades-of-brown colors and combinations, like Peach White-Eye or Cameo White-Eye, but not Pied. Still, I'm more fascinated by the colors and their combinations.