When it all goes horribly horribly wrong. Dogs and goats.

[oldhenlikesdogs]

What I will say  FOR him, is that he is a large man with an authoritative vibe who demonstrates leadership, starting with the dogs human pack and I'm sure he is capable of making any dog safe WITH HIM, but I don't think that's entirely method and I don't think just anyone can be successful with his method.  I have a friend who is a huge Ceasar fan, but emulate as he may, dogs don't respect him and he's that utility guy that gets attacked often.  He's not an assertive person by nature. 

I don't think the issue is respect so much as a drive that shorts out all other conscious thought.

If they ever have a caesar challenge where they put him a jack russel and a jack rabbit in the same room and set off a string of firecrackers...  I'd watch.  I might even sell tickets.    I could shout advice too...  haha.  That's a funny.  I had someone shouting good advice over the fence while I was trying to catch the dog on goat crisis.  Every problem is simply academic from the other side of the fence.

I am 5 feet tall, older with a lot of arthritis and joint problems, it has nothing to do with size, it does have to do with confidence and knowledge and not being afraid of your dogs and of learning what a dog requires behaviorally, some people are just destined to keep cats.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

I don't follow science much when raising animals or children.  I pretty much trust to God and common sense.  If it helps, I was using my own methods long before I'd ever heard of Cesar Milan and they were working.   A lot of his methods coincide with what I've found that works in my own back yard, so I don't mind offering them as good methods to those who might need them. 

I rarely ever reach for a book or a TV episode when I need to find out if something is true or works, I just try it out on my own to see if it works.  If it works, I share it.  That it works and works for years and years, on various and sundry animals, is proof enough for me. 

We think alike.

 

[Beekissed]

Maybe comes with age?

When you get older and your body doesn't have the strength it once did, one finds ways to work smarter, not harder.

Still wondering what the other half of this McNab mix is, as the info I found on the McNab dogs were that these dogs were very gentle and friendly with other animals and livestock, making them a tad different from other herd type breeds. Knowing the tendencies of the other half may give insight on the lay of the land.

Quote:

 

[dekel18042]

Maybe comes with age?

When you get older and your body doesn't have the strength it once did, one finds ways to work smarter, not harder.

Still wondering what the other half of this McNab mix is, as the info I found on the McNab dogs were that these dogs were very gentle and friendly with other animals and livestock, making them a tad different from other herd type breeds. Knowing the tendencies of the other half may give insight on the lay of the land.

X2. I still remember reading a scientific journal as a child at least forty years ago. Even then I was interested in dogs and in a study a university, I believe it was the University of Wyoming, but don't quote me on this were crossing border collies with livestock guardian dogs. The reason was that some dogs herd while some dogs guard but the goal was to create one that could do both jobs. However the experiment was terminated early because every last one of dogs, and they used several breeds for the livestock guardian half, Great Pyrenees,
Marammas, and several others and the outcome was all the same. They chased and killed the sheep they were supposed to guard and herd.
They came to the conclusion that border collies herd out of an arrested prey drive (And wasn't the border collie used in the development of the McNab?) and when the LGB was bread to it, the prey drive came out in full force. Very interesting article for me to remember it these many years later.

 

[cassie]

I recently saw a video demonstrating what you just said. The instincts used for guarding are totally incompatible with the instincts used for herding. Crossing a livestock guardian dog with a herding dog is a sure fire recipe for disaster.

 

[enola]

A well bred Australian Shepherd can and will both guard and herd.

 

[dekel18042]

A well bred Australian Shepherd can and will both guard and herd.

An excellent dog for both jobs is the English shepherd, called The Farmer's Best Kept Secret. These dogs are brilliant. They are still bred to a working standard (The standard saying one on one they should be able to take down a coyote.) and can do a myriad of jobs. These were the dogs of my childhood and I can't find any breed that surpasses them for usefulness. They herd, not so much out of a sense of prey job but a sense of bossyness. It's all about following the rules and regulations and they can think. Very versatile.

 

[Adalida]

That English shepherd is a lovely dog. It seems like they're a bit hard to find, but probably well worth the effort. One of my dogs is an Australian shepherd mix- rescue dog, so unsure if she's pure Aussie or not. I'd love to let her out while the chickens and ducks are free ranging, but I'm really leery of it after reading the story that started this post. One thing I will say for her- she has absolutely no instinct to bite, just to chase/herd. I've seen rabbits and gophers freeze when she was going after them, and she just stopped and looked at them. At the same time though, even if she didn't attack the flock, she would probably want to herd them, which would freak them out too.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

I trained my dog to accept and wear a basket muzzle, which is a huge help for any situation where I want to take away my fear of her biting something. Works great for introducing to livestock, children, or people (if, like in my case, you have a dog that is fear aggressive of strangers). I bought the Baskerville muzzle on Amazon and it's been great. Fits well and they can eat treats and drink through it, which is great when I have visitors and want her to socialize but I'm fearful she may react and bite.

 

[HnkyDnkyZZFarm]

Maybe comes with age?

When you get older and your body doesn't have the strength it once did, one finds ways to work smarter, not harder.

Still wondering what the other half of this McNab mix is, as the info I found on the McNab dogs were that these dogs were very gentle and friendly with other animals and livestock, making them a tad different from other herd type breeds. Knowing the tendencies of the other half may give insight on the lay of the land.

I don't want this to go BSL, and invite those with an axe to grind to share it, so it is sufficient to say the other half is a terrier breed.

Mcnabs are awesome - full Mcnabs are everything they say and more. Mcnabs are already independent thinkers though, they herd roughly the same way as the Border Collie the arrested prey drive, they chase, bark and nip at the heels of the cattle that have the colossal nerve to leave the pack and don't need to be cued - the best trained ones are started by their mother and are raised up around their livestock pack. Staying alive under the feet of something that outweighs you by 100x doesn't allow for waiting for instructions. Goats don't herd up the way other animals do necessarily either. Their joie du vivre is a slap in the face to a herding drive. Especially one with no formal experience behind it. They split off and once they go every goat for himself, there is no herd to herd, just prey on the hoof.

The terrier side makes that herding drive utterly useless. I agree with others that herding and guarding in the same dog is the perfect storm.

The drives bring out the worst in each other. I started this dog with an understanding that the terrier in him means he's a high drive dog that I can't give an inch with and he trained up solid - with humans. My daughter was very young and I wanted to make sure he knew the score about human pups and dogs. We didn't add livestock till he was just over 2, he is of course fixed, we knew from the get go this was a dog the world didn't need more of, and as he matured he really seemed to favor his good old boy side. He inhibits his bite when playing with other dogs and he's the first to yelp and go belly up when someone plays too rough. I didn't even bother trying to put him with stock because I had a feeling that it would be a situation that I would loose control over him in.

I'm feeling like I'd feel if my s/o cheated on me about the dog. Done. I hate to say that, but because I take what happened so seriously and around livestock it's not if, it's when and whether someone is here to stop him, I can not, will not go through what we did the other day. I got in there and did what I had to do, but I absolutely hated every second of it. I'm 110% either incapable or maybe just unwilling, I mean yeah they say you're likely to get bit eventually if you're dealing with a lot of dogs regularly, and I knew that, and am fully in acceptance of that, but that was just over the top. Dealing with a dog that acted like it didn't know me from paul, even for a split second makes that too much risk for me.