White Sport Cream Legbars

[HaplessRunner]

as far as I am concerned, the ONLY Physical difference between a regular Silver legbar and cream legbars to the creators of the breed was the Crest... and since egg color and chick color down cant be judge at shows, that is the ONLY difference between them.. as far as phenotype goes, now we can get into details about the blue egg gene and the recessive cream gene.. but none of that can change the fact Punnett and pease said the crest was the only difference between

@nicalandia

What are your thoughts then on the gold-toned and white cream legbars as varieties of the cream legbar? Or would you consider them as separate varieties within the legbar breed? Certainly, the cream legbar can have gold-toned parents if each carry one recessive gene for cream.

Part of the fundamental argument has been and continues to be is whether the cream legbar is its own breed or just a variety of legbar. I have a difficult time accepting that cream legbars are the same breed because they lay a different color egg from the other legbars. Is there another breed of chicken in which different varieties lay different color eggs? If there is, I have not heard of it. If one considers another breed such as the ameraucana, the APA accepts eight different color varieties of this breed. All ameraucanas have the same type and lay the same colored eggs. The only difference for ameraucanas is the color of the feathering. All lay the same blue/blue-green eggs. So it is easy to see and accept that these eight color variations are varieties within the breed. The same cannot be said of the legbars.

 

[HaplessRunner]

I have answered this question before but I am afraid I am not very good at articulating the answer in a way that makes sense to you. Perhaps if I understood your point of view I could better frame the answer so that you can at least understand what I am saying even if you do not agree with me, so a question or three for you:

-Why do you want the Cream Legbar to be accepted and added to the APA SOP?

I think that it is a very worthwhile endeavor to get any breed accepted on its own merits. I like this breed and the varieties that have identified been within the cream legbar. I personally have a high value for each variety of the cream legbar. The gold-toned birds are striking beautiful as are the white birds as are the true cream birds. I do not take lightly the belittling of the non-cream varieties within the cream legbar. Quite frankly, I find it off putting and offensive.

-Do you think the history of the breed, and the Standard that was accepted into the British equivalent of the APA SOP, matter to the drafting of the current Cream Legbar SOP, and if not, why not?

I think the standard that was developed in the UK for cream legbar and the history of the cream legbar are important and serve as historical context and a convenient template. That said, just because the PGCB adopted their standard in the way they did does not mean that we need to do it the same way on this side of the pond. I can accept historical developments and perspectives on the cream legbar and believe they have value. But I think that we need to chart the course that we want for the cream legbar and its varieties here in the USA. The PGCB template does not override our judgement and choice for what we believe is correct here in the USA. I personally really do not care if whether we align with or depart from the PGCB standard. The history of the cream legbar has been documented and the USA standard will be what we say it is. The APA will work with whatever the breed organization determines is correct.

-You stated that "the Cream Legbar has few characteristics in common with the related Gold and Silver"-we know that the crest and blue egg (all simple dominant genes) are two type differences, could you please explain what the other type differences are between the Cream and the other two varieties Legbars-- becasue they have the exact same type description (other than the crest and the eggs) and I am really confused?

I may have overstated this in pushing my point. My contention still rests upon the blue egg laying and cresting. It is not just a matter of two dominant genes. Can you identify any other chicken breed in the world in which two or more varieties of the same breed lay different color eggs? I have never heard of such a thing until learning of the legbars.

When the Chilean hen was bred into the original legbars, the resultant birds became radically different from other legbars. While cream legbars maintained a similar size and shape to other legbars, the cresting, blue egg laying, and cream colors became the prominent features. This was standardized and the cream legbars bred true until they almost became extinct. The efforts to save this breed introduced many other genes that can profoundly affect the melanization and colors of the cream legbar as we abundantly see today. I personally believe that an error was made in calling the cream legbar a variety within the legbar breed. I have read the history and many supporting articles and have yet to find a compelling logic to indicate that the cream legbar is just another legbar variety.

I look forward to hearing your reply!

I hope this helps. I am not trying to be argumentative. I have found in life that I take very little on faith and I tend to question everything. Especially things that do not seem to make sense to me. I have seen too many situations where a mistake was made in the past and rather than address and fix the mistake people live with continuing the mistake, if for no other reason than it has always been done that way.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
well since the Silver and Gold legbars are all but extinct and the only thriving "Legbar" now is the Cream Legbar which is crested by the way(dont know why they droped the cream creasted legbar name) now to the gold and white legbars.. since gold is the based of cream legbars they are ofcourse a color that will always show up from time to time and some will even breed for, as they can even be shown on the show ring as color is very subjective and gold and cream may mean different shades of the same color to some judges, and if they have good type, creast they can even win at a show.... as for white legbars.. they are window to the past of the cream legbar, at one time mr. pease introduced the white leghorn to encrease the egg production, while getting rid of the dominant white was easy, getting rid of the recessive was not, now you can view the White cream legbars as just cream legbars that have been covered by white, if you take that white off you will see a regular cream legbar underneath, its not like the white are Extended black, they are infact e+/e+ B/B ig/ig .. so they will sitll continue to pop up from time to time due to the nature of the recessive white gene.. as for showing them? they will Disqualified .. but since they are just cream legbars with recessive white this does not disqualify them from breeding stock IF they have exceptional type(body/comb/crest) I would still use them even more so if they prove to be fully cream(ig/ig) underneath the white

 

[dretd]

I need to give some thought to see if I can formulate a cogent response for you, I am not sure I can given your answers, unfortunately.

I am not really sure how to take your reply to the first question--why do you want to get the Cream Legbar admitted to the APA SOP? I actually still don't understand why you want them admitted, there are many different reasons I can think of, I just don't know yours. I was asked this question many months ago and found it very helpful for me to think about my answer and I think it was really helpful in conversing with the person who asked so we knew where each other was coming from without making any assumptions. I did not intend the question to offend, but to help us all understand each other's point of view better. I am very sorry that you took it any other way. I was expecting an answer and then a return question asking why I want them in but it went down a different path.

I am afraid that I also don't understand the last part of your reply: " I do not take lightly the belittling of the non-cream varieties within the cream legbar. Quite frankly, I find it off putting and offensive"

Are you offended personally that I asked you this question? Or do you think that I am belittling the White sport and other possible varieties by asking why you want the Cream Legbar admitted to the APA? Could you please point out exactly how you feel I have belittled yourself and the other possible legbar varieties through my statements? I am trying my best to understand your point of view and I am trying my best to articulate the point of view of the APA as I understand it. Clearly you are offended by me. I do not intend to be offensive and will try my best to remove language that offends you in future conversations--but I have to know what I am saying that is wrong. I do feel is is very important to try to correct statements that are incorrect, such as you saying the gold legbar lays a white egg and the silver lays a light brown egg. I am not sure how else to go about making that correction. Do you think it would be better if I do not say anything and let erroneous information stay on record to be repeated over and over until it is seen as 'fact'? What would you recommend I do in the future if there is a point that is factually incorrect, because I will do my best to approach it in a way that does not offend and that does not belittle anyone if I know how to phrase my response in a less off-putting way?

 

[nicalandia]

NY genetic questions just P.M me or ask it here. I am not about SOPs

 

[fowlman01]

This still does not address a fundamental question that I have yet to have answered. And that is: "How can they be the same breed if they lay different color eggs?" All chickens within the same breed should lay the same color eggs. Yes, the gold legbar and silver legbar are related and the cream legbar derived from some of the same heritage. But another breed was bred into this heritage that gave the cresting type characteristic and blue egg laying capability which are type features of the existing cream legbar.

I contend, as I have done in the past, the the term"legbar" is an historical anachronism that in the early days was applied to all three "varieties". That said, the cream legbar has few characteristics in common with the "related" gold and silver legbar. As you have frequently noted type makes the breed and color makes the variety. I would argue that egg color and cresting are part of "type" for which no gold or silver legbar shares. Since they do not share these "type" characteristics and they vary by more than just color, how can they be the same breed?

I really think that the difference in these fundamentals must be addressed. Why continue making the same historical mistake?

I have read the British Standard and Legbar is the breed. Cream, gold etc is the variety. I am guessing that the egg color or any other differences are becasue of the way they originally made these Legbar colors. I don't believe this is a historical mistake....but lets say it is. The APA will consider the Legbar a breed, but will not consider a Gold Legbar or Cream Legbar a breed. They will be a variety. The British and the Americans have some differences in how they view things, but the way I read the British Standard is that there is no difference about Legbars being a breed.

Walt Leonard
Chairman of the APA Standard Revision Committee.

 

[HaplessRunner]

I need to give some thought to see if I can formulate a cogent response for you, I am not sure I can given your answers, unfortunately.

I am not really sure how to take your reply to the first question--why do you want to get the Cream Legbar admitted to the APA SOP? I actually still don't understand why you want them admitted, there are many different reasons I can think of, I just don't know yours. I was asked this question many months ago and found it very helpful for me to think about my answer and I think it was really helpful in conversing with the person who asked so we knew where each other was coming from without making any assumptions. I did not intend the question to offend, but to help us all understand each other's point of view better. I am very sorry that you took it any other way. I was expecting an answer and then a return question asking why I want them in but it went down a different path.

I am afraid that I also don't understand the last part of your reply: " I do not take lightly the belittling of the non-cream varieties within the cream legbar. Quite frankly, I find it off putting and offensive"

Are you offended personally that I asked you this question? Or do you think that I am belittling the White sport and other possible varieties by asking why you want the Cream Legbar admitted to the APA? Could you please point out exactly how you feel I have belittled yourself and the other possible legbar varieties through my statements? I am trying my best to understand your point of view and I am trying my best to articulate the point of view of the APA as I understand it. Clearly you are offended by me. I do not intend to be offensive and will try my best to remove language that offends you in future conversations--but I have to know what I am saying that is wrong. I do feel is is very important to try to correct statements that are incorrect, such as you saying the gold legbar lays a white egg and the silver lays a light brown egg. I am not sure how else to go about making that correction. Do you think it would be better if I do not say anything and let erroneous information stay on record to be repeated over and over until it is seen as 'fact'? What would you recommend I do in the future if there is a point that is factually incorrect, because I will do my best to approach it in a way that does not offend and that does not belittle anyone if I know how to phrase my response in a less off-putting way?

Elissa,

I think that we need to take this off line. You did not offend me and I hope I have not offended you. I will call you so that we can discuss further.

Best regards,


Tony

 

[HaplessRunner]

I have read the British Standard and Legbar is the breed. Cream, gold etc is the variety. I am guessing that the egg color or any other differences are becasue of the way they originally made these Legbar colors. I don't believe this is a historical mistake....but lets say it is. The APA will consider the Legbar a breed, but will not consider a Gold Legbar or Cream Legbar a breed. They will be a variety. The British and the Americans have some differences in how they view things, but the way I read the British Standard is that there is no difference about Legbars being a breed.

Walt Leonard
Chairman of the APA Standard Revision Committee.

Walt,

Thank you for your thoughts and perspective. As I am sure that you are aware, we have cream legbars that are true cream in color, We also have cream legbars that are gold-toned and more colorful because they do not have the dual recessive genes that produce the true cream color. These gold-toned birds have either one or no recessive gene which fails to dilute the gold to cream. In addition, we also have true white colored cream legbars that have dual white recessive genes that eliminate all other colors. This does not even get into the level of melanization that causes gold-toned and true cream colored legbars to vary from dark to light.

So if I understand your position, all of these birds are either variations of the cream legbar variety or they can be considered additional variations of the legbar breed. So what is the preference of the APA in addressing the varieties that we have found in the cream legbar variety? Do we consider them additional legbar varieties or cream legbar varieties? The answer to these questions will weigh heavily in moving forward in our efforts to obtain APA approval of cream legbars and other "varieties."

Best regards,

Tony Markley
Eastern Regional Director, Cream Legbar Club

 

[fowlman01]

They are variations of Legbars. The APA only requires a variety to breed 50% true. Whatever other colors you are getting would be viewed as sports. Blue produces Blue black and splash. They use the splash for breeding since they are not in the Standard. Given what is going on genetically with these you are going to have all kinds of variations. The suggestion is to go with the Cream and see what happens. Imo. They are still evolving and no one knows what genes are really in these birds. I believe that there are at least 4 strains around with hybrids between the four families.

Walt

 

[Brada Puhi]

Aloha,

I think that this discussion is interesting, and hopefully the discussion can continue online without people getting insulted. After all, weʻre talking about chickens! Weʻe not talking about each other, just our differing opinions on CHICKENS.

People have different points of view and it would be boring if we didnʻt.

Feel free to talk shet about my opinions.

Even with the views of some very esteemed chicken people here like Niclandia, Dretd, Fowlman and Hapless, I still feel that Cream Legbars deserve their own category at shows, but totally respect and value the opinion of those mentioned above(and others not mentioned).

Mahalo for the awesome discussion, Puhi