white sumatra

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

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what kind of mating did this rooster come from? if he is splash, shouldnt the black in him be blue?

you are right
Those birds pictured are not true splash, though they are very nice color. they are more of a heavy mottled. TRUE Splash will be blue and white , with NO black at all on them.And some of the black X splash percentages are wrong too, you will not get all those colors mentioned from PURE black x splash mating, only blues.

Will be interesting to see what those throw never seen one with donimate white in it, but still, seems if that were true and it is a splash based bird with dominate white in it, then genetically, the blue/black would be covered by white as that is what dominate white does. So with this in mind, if it is a dominate white based bird, it SHOULD be solid white. You cant have Black showing on any dominate white based bird, as that is the nature of dominate white.

Again, dont get me wrong, they look beautiful, love the color, but think they need a new color name.
The "splash" birds pictured look to be exactly the same as what they are calling "paint" in silkies over in Europe. Solid white birds with black streaks threw the body. Not exactly sure of the genetic make up, but not splash, there's only one type of splash, anything else is a new color all together. They look to be exchequer based birds , which to my understanding, yes , has mottled in them

There are tons of excellent white sumatras over in Europe, but yes very rare here in the states, only a small handful have them.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

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i doubt that, the reason the rooster doesnt look like a normal splash is because he has both dominant white and splash in him, it is not mottling. here is my rooster who is a red columbian with dominant white:https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/71540_dec_16th_chicken_pictures_006.jpgas you can see the dominant white has a similar afect on red, but it is not mottling.

dominate white dones not cover red. It bleaches or dilutes it to orange, and covers black with white. That bird has to have mottling in it or it would not have the speckles of white to it. It honestly looks just like a goldneck color, which is millie fluer with dominate white, the black in those are replaced by white and the red from the millie is faded to orange. In order for that bird to be dom white based, it has to have had a millie based pattern in it somewhere down the line. (edited to add, in other words red columbian and mottled, dominate white will not just randomly pop up with speckles in the breast if it's not mottled)

I believe what Dan Honour said to be the closest guess to genetic reasoning in what is going on with those sumatras birds in question. They look to be exchequer based, which if one came from a hatchery, honestly, God only knows what they bred it with up there. But inorder for it to come out with offspring looking like that, exchequer/or mottling of some form is the only sain conclusion, not splash , not dominate white.

 

[gallo4319]

I got some blue, black and white chicks from this pair, white chicks will be white and black since the father is black.

 

[phasianidae]

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i doubt that, the reason the rooster doesnt look like a normal splash is because he has both dominant white and splash in him, it is not mottling. here is my rooster who is a red columbian with dominant white:https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/71540_dec_16th_chicken_pictures_006.jpgas you can see the dominant white has a similar afect on red, but it is not mottling.

dominate white dones not cover red. It bleaches or dilutes it to orange, and covers black with white. That bird has to have mottling in it or it would not have the speckles of white to it. It honestly looks just like a goldneck color, which is millie fluer with dominate white, the black in those are replaced by white and the red from the millie is faded to orange. In order for that bird to be dom white based, it has to have had a millie based pattern in it somewhere down the line.

I believe what Dan Honour said to be the closest guess to genetic reasoning in what is going on with those sumatras birds in question. They look to be exchequer based, which if one came from a hatchery, honestly, God only knows what they bred it with up there. But inorder for it to come out with offspring looking like that, exchequer/or motling of some form is the only sain conclusion, not splash , not dominate white.

I highly doubt that he is a millie fluer with dominant white, his mom was a California White and his father was a 50% NH, 25% RIR, and 25% BR.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

millie fluer was just a example, we agree he was columbian, no question there, and yes dominate white based, well now look at his breast, it sure looks mottled to me, white speckles all over it.
May not TECHINCALLY be a millie, but columbian, mottled, and dominate white = goldneck
no dom. white = pretty much a millie

 

[phasianidae]

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He is not mottled. In order to be mottled, both of his parents would have to carry at least one gene for mottling. Dominant white can dilute red and does in many Red Sexlinks.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

no doubt it dilutes red, never said it didnt, it also dilute golds
but it dosent make random white mottle pattern spots in the breast of an all red bird, mottling does. Dominate white only REPLACES black feathering, so all white feathers on a dominate white bird in it's natural form would originally have been black (or recessive white)if the dominate white gene wasnt present.
So pretty much, remove dominate white from your rooster and you would have a red columbian with black and or recessive white speckles all over it's breast.
Sounds like there was quite a diverse gene pool going in what he came out of. Yes it takes two copies of the mottling gene to show it. From all of what you said was in him, it is very possible for him to have come from split mottled birds, even if the mottling was many many generations back, it is still very possible for them to be carrying a mottled gene and just not show it.
As side from that, in a genetic sense, how do you explain the white speckled pattern on the breast?
It doesnt look random from what I can see, seems to be a nice even pattern on him.

 

[phasianidae]

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Dont get me wrong, I love his color but someone told me it was dominant white that is making the mottled looking afect. I just dont understand how he could be mottled since I have never had a mottled bird in my flock.

 

[Sumatra503]

I had a birchen come out of my first Sumatras. I think it was a cross between mom's Barred rocks and my hen. It was a very interesting bird, but he was meaner than anything.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Oh I dont, and hope you dont take anything I have said wrong either.
Yes he is a beautiful bird I love the color on him.
But from a genetic sense, dominate white doesnt ramdonly put white speckles on anything unless they were originally black or possibley blue.

Dominate white turns red a orangish color, turns true gold into buff, turns black to white, that's it, it cant make patterns, it just covers or dilutes color

Common Examples of it's effect

millie fluer x dom. white = goldneck
gold laced x dom. white = buff laced
bb red x dominate white = red pyle

you are right , mottling is recessive and must inherite 2 copies of it to be visable. BUT, without knowing all the many generations of the parent birds back grounds, you will never know what they can be split to. Thus these random combos pop up. A bird can be split to mottled and carry 1 copy and never show of course, yet when it gets bred to another bird carrying mottled, pop, there's your mottled birds.
Also I think you said one was a solid white parent (dominate white I assume) Well it is possible for it to be visibly expressing the mottled gene, yet you'd never know.
What I mean by that is, if you have a black mottled bird, but it has dominate white in it, what color will it be? ALL WHITE. Yet it will be a mottle bird genetically speaking.

So you never know what the previous owners of you line had bred into them. Doesnt happen often, but there's no way he cant have some mottled in him from a line somewhere, even if it came from 5-6 generations back, those patterns have to be put into them some how.

(I do tons of genetic breeding for new colors here, on d'anvers and bantam phoenix) A mottled case I ran into last year was in one of those projects.
I am working on making lavender mottled d'anvers. Well, I obviously used one of my lavender male groups to my black mottled hens. These should all come out just black the first time and be split to both lavender and mottled, by back breeding those, I should then get some lavender mottled. BUT once hatched, they all ended up being black with good but faint mottling. The only way that is possible being that the lavender males I used were solid 9no visible mottled patterns), is a previous breeder had somewhere crossed them to mottleds before and they were splits (lavender split to mottled). By being splits, they added the second mottled gene needed to make the pattern visible.