Who Has the Best Marans?

[gojira]

Hi gojira,
yes Brenda is working with a very small gene pool. years ago some pure French eggs were left on her doorstep.
Years later it came out they were from a top French breeder. the government inspected the eggs and the birds and gave her the okay . her birds are pure French, there are no u.s. lines or blood in them. she culls very heavily . Her birds are beautiful. Heaven Sent Ranch had their own strain which is very nice . I believe it is non- French but haven't double checked that. they were one of the very first breeders to whom Little Peddler released birds and mixed them with their strain. so if you can mix little Peddler and Heaven Sent Ranch, you'd have about 75% little Peddler and 25% Heaven Sent Ranch . that's a really good ratio.
Best,
Karen

I know the little peddler story. Not sure if the story happened that way. So what country does little peddler live in if it is not the US? Seventy five percent Little Peddler and twenty five percent heaven sent ranch is a good ratio for what?

 

[gojira]

I guess if you haven't seen my birds or my eggs, you can't really say that I'm compromising either type or egg color.

Yes, my mindset says middle of the road while trying to improve on both aspects is NOT compromising one for the other or giving me low quality birds. If you sacrifice one for the other that MAKES a low quality bird IMO, as far as SOP goes. Breeding to a standard is hard work. And keeping your feelings out of it but keeping your eye keen takes a certain mindset. Took years to get where I am as far as a farmer mentality goes. But my OCD perfectionist brain makes it easy to walk that narrow path.

Hmm, let's see... culling hard. I accept no dq faults. Have even culled for white fluff. And collected from different breeding lines only to cull cull cull before I even allow my birds to mingle. Growing them out until at least 1 year to see how they develop. Learning the SOP over and over again, burning it into my brain and teaching myself how to discern what I should or should not be seeing. It's a process of training and growing so that these features become second nature to my understanding. And learning which parent passes on which trait and all the other little genetic secrets. Seeing as many other birds as I can. Constantly striving to become the best my birds and I can. Earlier on it was much harder to pick out say wrong eye color if I was focusing on say feather pattern or shank color. But now I can look and start to recognize the things that are just off. And look deeper at split wing and such. Even how many points are on the comb.

Really I selected Marans for their meat quality and nice egg color as a dual purpose breed. Never really thought of the birds as pretty. But they have grown on me and their green sheen is beautiful. The more Marans I see, I am satisfied with where I am starting. And boy have I learned to read between the lines when talking to people who "breed".

If I weren't that strict on egg color, then anything would pass. That's not the case and have culled 2 hens for egg color despite the fact they were great hens. (the shade comes from the cock, so it's important to know which hen the cocks come from) Again, I WILL cull for any fault. I can't say 1% or less because I haven't kept percentages yet. I am just getting started last year and have 4 birds kept out of about 30 + from 3 unrelated lines. But decided I can't strive for perfection before I ever start hatching or I will never hatch.

My birds may not be show winning (cuz quite frankly I don't care about shows or other keeping up with the Jones' type stuff and I worry too much about disease). But they ARE quality and lay a nice colored egg even if not a 9.

Never YET has anybody bought who would be uncomfortable buying from me again, and most travel not less than 90 minutes each way and some as far as 7 hours each way. I'm not currently NPIP and don't know if I will since this is a hobby for me. I did contact my vet to see what it takes to get a certificate of health for my flock which is supposed to be an alternative. Only reason I am even considering is so I can share my birds with others, who maybe don't have $140 to spend on a dozen SHIPPED eggs. Alchemist farm in the bay area have LP lines and others, their eggs are about $80 a dozen. GFF is said to have the only APA vetted flock and to me, their egg color is ANYTHING but impressive.

So yes, I do NOT feel as though I am compromising, with my mindset. I feel as though I have good stock that I will work to make GREAT stock. And there is NOTHING easy about that task. I have even considered throwing in the towel and allowing for barnyard mixing to just enjoy the hobby and feed my family. But the challenge is part of the fun and preoccupies my mind with constructive things instead of this scary, depressing world!

You were the one that said you compomised on type and conformation.

If you are breeding for the average, you are not improving anything. Breeding for the average is compromising, and is breeding low quality birds. You are compromising on both, not just one. If you are focusing on one trait at a time, you are not culling hard at all.

So you are raising Wheaten Marans?

If you kept four out of fewer than 40, the math says you kept over 10%, and that is higher than 1%. Sounds like average culling, not culling hard. Culling hard is hatching 100 chicks to keep one.

Why would you start with good birds, trying to make them great, when there are excellent birds out there? Those eggs cost $20 per dozen. Funny how quality tends to cost less.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

You were the one that said you compomised on type and conformation.

If you are breeding for the average, you are not improving anything. Breeding for the average is compromising, and is breeding low quality birds. You are compromising on both, not just one. If you are focusing on one trait at a time, you are not culling hard at all.

So you are raising Wheaten Marans?

If you kept four out of fewer than 40, the math says you kept over 10%, and that is higher than 1%. Sounds like average culling, not culling hard. Culling hard is hatching 100 chicks to keep one.

Why would you start with good birds, trying to make them great, when there are excellent birds out there? Those eggs cost $20 per dozen. Funny how quality tends to cost less.

Whatever... that's your perspective and you have a right to it.

Your opinion has nothing to do with how I feel about my birds and I said I select to improve on all aspects. Sorry if you consider that compromise, I consider it sensible. Not all of us have room or time or energy to raise hundreds of birds at a time so we can keep two or three. Awesome for you if you're blessed in that fashion! I am working within my means. So each to their own. No, I breed French Black Copper Marans, which as far as I know is what the conversation has been about all along. Maybe there are great birds for $20/dozen. That's not what I had access to or what I started with and here I am today. Mine far surpass hatchery stock and many others I've seen. No they aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry, I'm not willing to throw it all out and start over on your word. Hope you enjoy your birds and BYC! Thank you for showing me that no matter what you do some people will never be satisfied and nit pick every word or number.

Best wishes and Happy Hatching!

 

[gojira]

Whatever... that's your perspective and you have a right to it.

Your opinion has nothing to do with how I feel about my birds and I said I select to improve on all aspects. Sorry if you consider that compromise, I consider it sensible. Not all of us have room or time or energy to raise hundreds of birds at a time so we can keep two or three. Awesome for you if you're blessed in that fashion! I am working within my means. So each to their own. No, I breed French Black Copper Marans, which as far as I know is what the conversation has been about all along. Maybe there are great birds for $20/dozen. That's not what I had access to or what I started with and here I am today. Mine far surpass hatchery stock and many others I've seen. No they aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry, I'm not willing to throw it all out and start over on your word. Hope you enjoy your birds and BYC! Thank you for showing me that no matter what you do some people will never be satisfied and nit pick every word or number.

Best wishes and Happy Hatching!

I am going on what you type. You are the one that said you are breeding for good type and good color, and middle of the road.

How are you improving if you want middle of the road? Randomly mating will get you middle of the road. You are the one that said you cull hard. If you don't cull hard, why say it? If you breed Black Copper Marans, and you claim to breed according to the standard, and you say you have read it over and over, you have something else to cull for, the beetle green sheen. The Standard only mentions beetle green sheen in Wheaten Marans males. Where did I mention starting over?

 

[3riverschick]

Hi Gojira,
Brenda lives in Tennessee . Fort Smith area, last time I checked.
I think the Heaven Sent x Little Peddler cross would be good for bringing just a little bit more outside blood into the the gene pool without losing all the excellencies of the Little Peddler line . I think it would make a good line breeding foundation.
Best
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Eggsighted4life,
My two models in the poultry world are Dragonlady (who's now retired after over 50 years in the poultry world) and Walt Leonard . both of them are exceptional breeders and have been such a help to me.
Dragon lady was the epitome of the small-time breeder her Buff Orpingtons were nationally honored . Yet she bred very few each year. She culled and she culled and her Buff Orpingtons she calls him her "Sunshine Girls " are just stupendous.
Walt Leonard ?well what's there to say there. He's a legend in poultry. chairman of the APA Standards Committee. Best in Show at the big Shows. If Walt speaks ,you can take it to the bank .
I think one of the best places to learn from both of them is Bob Blosl's old original "Heritage Large Fowl" thread . Both of them posted often. the knowledge that they shared is just incredible .
Best,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

You know Eggsighted4life ,
things are different ,much different , for a small-time Breeder than a large breeder. our plans must be more focused . they must contain exceptional , exhaustive research. every bird we must know exactly what they're producing . every breeding must have exhaustive research behind it . there is no picking from big numbers . there are no mistakes. If mistakes occur, they have a much heartier impact on our breeding program. I * know * it has to be right the first time.
the work that big time breeders put into creating a large amount of chicks to choose from .....instead we put that time into the research behind the few Birds we have.
I get it, I really do . I did it in Collies and I succeeded well. and I'll do it in poultry. it just is a different way of doing things.
The Joy the big time breeders get from seeing that 3 or 5 or 10 really nice Birds out of the large hatches that they've done.... we get the same Joy out of seeing our projected results , based on our research, manifest themselves in the few chicks that we breed.
We go down the middle of the road balancing our gene pools while pulling virtues in from both sides of the pedigree . Removing faults, hopefully, at the same time.
there is no better place for the smaller breeder to be than the middle of the road for our bird numbers don't handle wide swings in breed type easily.
We use exhaustive research and extensive pre-planning to increase the quality of our birds while we stay in the middle of the road.
Best , Karen

 

[gojira]

Hi Gojira,
Brenda lives in Tennessee . Fort Smith area, last time I checked.
I think the Heaven Sent x Little Peddler cross would be good for bringing just a little bit more outside blood into the the gene pool without losing all the excellencies of the Little Peddler line . I think it would make a good line breeding foundation.
Best
Karen

I thought she was on Arkansas? Eother way, The last I knew, I thought both Arkansas and Tennessee were in the US? How are her birds not a US line? What are the "excellencies" of the little peddler birds? What are the negatives? What characteristics would you be linebreeding on? I am simply asking for clarification, as i am familiar with the little peddler birds.

 

[3riverschick]

Oh yeah that's right it is Arkansas not Tennessee. Her birds are all descended from a Pure French line. there is no US, Canadian ,British, or any other blood in her Birds . they are pure French.
Brenda offered me some of her Birds one time but I was breeding trying to breed Golden salmon at the time.
well if you're familiar with her birds why are you asking me ? I'm not in Marans anymore .
Frankly, I love the depth of her Birds. I love the color of her Birds. I especially like the silhouette of her Birds . It is rare enough in Marans. The simplest answer is that I would be breeding on what I like about her Birds.
The Marans breed can do a lot worse than to look at the depth and the station of her birds and copy it.
I am tired of looking at shallow breasted, poor stationed Marans of every color while people (that don't know what they're talking about ) extoll how wonderful a silhouette the bird has.
Best,
Karen

 

[gojira]

You know Eggsighted4life ,
things are different ,much different , for a small-time Breeder than a large breeder. our plans must be more focused . they must contain exceptional , exhaustive research. every bird we must know exactly what they're producing . every breeding must have exhaustive research behind it . there is no picking from big numbers . there are no mistakes. If mistakes occur, they have a much heartier impact on our breeding program. I * know * it has to be right the first time.
the work that big time breeders put into creating a large amount of chicks to choose from .....instead we put that time into the research behind the few Birds we have.
I get it, I really do . I did it in Collies and I succeeded well. and I'll do it in poultry. it just is a different way of doing things.
The Joy the big time breeders get from seeing that 3 or 5 or 10 really nice Birds out of the large hatches that they've done.... we get the same Joy out of seeing our projected results , based on our research, manifest themselves in the few chicks that we breed.
We go down the middle of the road balancing our gene pools while pulling virtues in from both sides of the pedigree . Removing faults, hopefully, at the same time.
there is no better place for the smaller breeder to be than the middle of the road for our bird numbers don't handle wide swings in breed type easily.
We use exhaustive research and extensive pre-planning to increase the quality of our birds while we stay in the middle of the road.
Best , Karen

I think both large and small breeders feel that they have to keep something from each hatch, etc. People talk about culling hard, but very few cull hard at all. I have goals in each breeding, and I may hatch 100 chicks from a pairing, looking for one specific bird. When one selects, they should be moving forward. How can you improve, if you stay in the middle of the road? I always head the term middle of the road to describe mediocrity.