Who Has the Best Marans?

[gojira]

It is not hard to breed excellent dogs if you start with 100. it is much harder to breed excellent dogs if you start with two. unsubscribing.
Karen

The point was that they had to weed through a lot to get something worth working with. Really, they started with ten dogs. Even then, some of them got weeded out eventually. Even if you start with two dogs, or two birds, you can make sure they are quality. Everyone feels that they have to breed birds, and they feel any bird is good enough. That is why it is tough to find good quality birds. People put down hatcheries, but some birds put out by breeders are not any better. In fact, some birds from hatcheries are not bad. Either way, it comes down to selection of breeder birds.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Funny that you're such a hard critic about so many others birds but think hatcheries put out some not so bad birds.
Gotta remember not everyone breeds for show. In fact very few do. Plenty of room and purpose for breeding besides showing.
Eggs from and poor quality birds taste as good as show birds or their eggs.

 

[gojira]

Funny that you're such a hard critic about so many others birds but think hatcheries put out some not so bad birds.
Gotta remember not everyone breeds for show. In fact very few do. Plenty of room and purpose for breeding besides showing.
Eggs from and poor quality birds taste as good as show birds or their eggs.

First, which birds have I criticized? I am much more critical of my own birds than i am anyone else's. Second, I was saying relative to a lot of breeder birds, some hatchery birds are not bad. I showed a feed store bird earlier this year and she got best of variety. Apparently judges felt a hatchery bird was not so bad either. The vast majority of my birds are down from breeder birds, but i give credit where it is due. A good bird is a good bird no matter where it comes from, and a bad bird the same. I know not many people show, but why post in a section for exhibition and breeding to the Standard of Perfection if that is not your thing? I don't think anyone is going around telling people where to post, or which forums to read. Plus, i feel people should be honest no matter where they post, and i feel people should not get upset when someone is being honest. People who don't care if they breed subpar birds is not new. But people should not complain about hatchery birds when they are not doing much different, even if it is on a smaller scale. I guess that is why people make up lies about hatcheries, so that people won't realize they are doing the same thing. The worst part of it is that this started when a young person new to poultry made a comment, and people felt the need to mislead this young person. What good does that do? I feel people should help young people. It seems like people want to doom young people to make the same mistakes they did.

 

[The Moonshiner]

As for who's birds have you criticized.... You have a round about way of putting others down. Maybe its not criticizing maybe your way of keeping up an argument.
I'm not to hard on hatchery birds. I've had decent ones just surprising to hear that comment from someone so into showing. As you know it is the show breeders that are usually so quick to put down hatchery stock.
It isn't any stretch to believe hatchery stock is sometimes better then some breeders stock if you're lumping all breeders together.
Compared to show breeders that show often and do well at it I'd say hatchery stock doesn't compare.
Can hatchery birds win at shows? Of course. Any bird has a chance of winning if it can get past being DQed. It depends on who's judging and what other birds you're up against. I've been to shows where some breeds/varieties didn't have any entries. Not hard to win with a crappy bird if that's all that's entered.
Not sure if you're referring to the original poster that started the thread or the one that asked about quality and egg color in the same bird. Didn't catch your post where you were any real help to either. Both are pretty much asking for opinions. And that's what they get. Just because someone's opinion is different from yours doesn't mean its misleading. If someone posts something that is incorrect as fact feel free to correct them and show the facts . I know that's what you expect from others. Maybe when you're straightening out all this misleading info instead of just arguing you should show some sources of where you're getting your info instead of just demanding others do.
As for this section. You don't have to be into showing to want info. Maybe they are curious or looking for opinions. Just because this is the exhibition etc section doesn't mean it can't stray or get a bit sideways. Heck you had a post about dog breeding. That's pretty off topic for this section.
I agree breeders should help the youth. Some do some won't. It is what it is. It was like that when I started 40 years ago. That's not gonna change.
Unsubscribing

 

[gojira]

As for who's birds have you criticized.... You have a round about way of putting others down. Maybe its not criticizing maybe your way of keeping up an argument.
I'm not to hard on hatchery birds. I've had decent ones just surprising to hear that comment from someone so into showing. As you know it is the show breeders that are usually so quick to put down hatchery stock.
It isn't any stretch to believe hatchery stock is sometimes better then some breeders stock if you're lumping all breeders together.
Compared to show breeders that show often and do well at it I'd say hatchery stock doesn't compare.
Can hatchery birds win at shows? Of course. Any bird has a chance of winning if it can get past being DQed. It depends on who's judging and what other birds you're up against. I've been to shows where some breeds/varieties didn't have any entries. Not hard to win with a crappy bird if that's all that's entered.
Not sure if you're referring to the original poster that started the thread or the one that asked about quality and egg color in the same bird. Both are pretty much asking for opinions. And that's what they get. Just because someone's opinion is different from yours doesn't mean its misleading. If someone posts something that is incorrect as fact feel free to correct them and show the facts . I know that's what you expect from others. Maybe when you're straightening out all this misleading info instead of just arguing you should show some sources of where you're getting your info instead of just demanding others do.
As for this section. You don't have to be into showing to want info. Maybe they are curious or looking for opinions. Just because this is the exhibition etc section doesn't mean it can't stray or get a bit sideways. Heck you had a post about dog breeding. That's pretty off topic for this section.
I agree breeders should help the youth. Some do some won't. It is what it is. It was like that when I started 40 years ago. That's not gonna change.
Unsubscribing

Who have I put down? I don't like to argue, but I also don't allow people to convince me that things that are made up are true.

Actually, the majority of people I see putting down hatchery birds have never shown, and have no intention of showing. I think they just think it is cool to say all hatchery birds are poor quality, and then make up lies about hatchery birds that they can't back up when asked.

I was referring mainly to the one that asked about quality and egg color. I answered based on experience, and experience of others, as well as a basic knowledge of poultry genetics. The problem came when someone with limited experience who admittedly only wants average birds said you can have extremes of both in one bird. One would be more likely to show sources if people wanted to learn. At this point, I think I will just help youth in my area if they want to learn about poultry. It is not worth it trying to correct misinformation. People don't want to let go of myths and old wives' tales.

Sure, anyone can ask a question, but if one responds, and does not have much knowledge or experience, they should not be offended if they are corrected by someone who does. When i brought up the dog example, i was trying to paint a clearer picture of culling hard. One person could not seem to comprehend what culling hard was, but wanted to claim she did so.

I am not talking about wanting or not wanting to help youth. If you don't want to help, you don't have to lie, or at best, give misleading information.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Who have I put down? I don't like to argue, but I also don't allow people to convince me that things that are made up are true.

Actually, the majority of people I see putting down hatchery birds have never shown, and have no intention of showing. I think they just think it is cool to say all hatchery birds are poor quality, and then make up lies about hatchery birds that they can't back up when asked.

I was referring mainly to the one that asked about quality and egg color. I answered based on experience, and experience of others, as well as a basic knowledge of poultry genetics. The problem came when someone with limited experience who admittedly only wants average birds said you can have extremes of both in one bird. One would be more likely to show sources if people wanted to learn. At this point, I think I will just help youth in my area if they want to learn about poultry. It is not worth it trying to correct misinformation. People don't want to let go of myths and old wives' tales.

Sure, anyone can ask a question, but if one responds, and does not have much knowledge or experience, they should not be offended if they are corrected by someone who does. When i brought up the dog example, i was trying to paint a clearer picture of culling hard. One person could not seem to comprehend what culling hard was, but wanted to claim she did so.

I am not talking about wanting or not wanting to help youth. If you don't want to help, you don't have to lie, or at best, give misleading information.

I still disagree about the quality bird with good egg color myself.
There is no reason it can't be done and you've shown nothing to back your opinion.
If someone selectively breeds for both why can't it? Here's you're chance. Simply state why it couldn't.
You talk about misinformation, misleading and helping the youth. Saying marans can't be quality and have good egg color is misinforming and could very well lead youth away from the breed.
It is genetics and selective breeding. There's no genetic reason it can't and no selective breeding reason it can't besides a breeding not selecting for both.
As for dog breeding. I too showed dogs and had a mentor that has produced and showed multible generations to grand champions.
I know tons of dog breeders. I lived and worked in that world for years.
I can guarantee you no breeder worth a crap goes out and picks up 100 dogs, culls 90 of them then starts a breeding program from there.
No breeder with any success will even sell one dog with breeding rights to anyone just starting out.
Good dog breeders are crazy protective of their lines.
Maybe your example was more of the puppy mill variety and then I could see why you'd have to buy 100 to find any worth breeding. So maybe your culling hard example was just that but if refrain from referring to them as any kind of breeder. Puppy producer would be more correct.
Also culling hard isn't about numbers or percentages.
If you're dealing with poor birds then sure 1 out of 100 sounds about right but from a good line you could easily cull 2/3 and still be culling hard.

 

[gojira]

I still disagree about the quality bird with good egg color myself.
There is no reason it can't be done and you've shown nothing to back your opinion.
If someone selectively breeds for both why can't it? Here's you're chance. Simply state why it couldn't.
You talk about misinformation, misleading and helping the youth. Saying marans can't be quality and have good egg color is misinforming and could very well lead youth away from the breed.
It is genetics and selective breeding. There's no genetic reason it can't and no selective breeding reason it can't besides a breeding not selecting for both.
As for dog breeding. I too showed dogs and had a mentor that has produced and showed multible generations to grand champions.
I know tons of dog breeders. I lived and worked in that world for years.
I can guarantee you no breeder worth a crap goes out and picks up 100 dogs, culls 90 of them then starts a breeding program from there.
No breeder with any success will even sell one dog with breeding rights to anyone just starting out.
Good dog breeders are crazy protective of their lines.
Maybe your example was more of the puppy mill variety and then I could see why you'd have to buy 100 to find any worth breeding. So maybe your culling hard example was just that but if refrain from referring to them as any kind of breeder. Puppy producer would be more correct.
Also culling hard isn't about numbers or percentages.
If you're dealing with poor birds then sure 1 out of 100 sounds about right but from a good line you could easily cull 2/3 and still be culling hard.

Why do I need to keep repeating the same things over and over and over? If someone doesn't want to understand the first time, repeating it does no good. But, one more time, here goes..... People with experience have found that when they breed away from one trait that has a negative impact on exhibition quality, particularly coloration, it has a negative impact on egg color. Yes, you can select for egg color, you can select for exhibition quality, but sometimes things are antagonistic. These traits seemed to be linked, so it is not likely to have one without the other. So, saying Marans can be top qualuty and have the darkest egg color us misleading, and when a youth discovers the truth, that can lead them away from the breed. There are genetic reasons it can't be done, and I have said it several times.

Have you ever dealt with rare dog breeds? Have you been involved with the foundation of a dog breed? That is what I was talking about. In the beginning of that dog breed, there were not many quality foundation animals. I think you have it backwards. If a puppy mill bought 100 dogs, they would breed all 100 no matter what. Most people buy a few dogs and breed every one. These guys were not just starting out. They were accomplished at the time. Yes, they were protective of their lines. They had high standards, and wanted dogs to excel in multiple areas. These were working dogs that also did well (supreme grand champions, etc.) In conformation. When you have high standards, you don't just put two animals together and market the offspring as great.

Show me a good line if birds out there. They are few and far between. Most lines out there do not breed consistency, because no one breeds for it. I breed for consistency. Culling hard is culling hard. If you have to make excuses for keeping an animal for breeding, you probably should not have. If you say the bird has faults, but it has one good attribute, it probably should have been culled. That is why it is difficult to find good birds today.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Have you ever dealt with rare dog breeds? Have you been involved with the foundation of a dog breed? That is what I was talking about. In the beginning of that dog breed, there were not many quality foundation animals.

No not personally.
What breed was that?

 

[The Moonshiner]

I don't raise anyone's line of birds any more except my own.
The last birds I had of someone's line was years ago. They were Horstmans barred rock bantams.
They were a good line and bred very consistent. I've got away from most bantams and showing. Do wish I had a couple still around since I had a project in mind that I could of used them in.
I still go to shows and buy from breeders at times but I don't want to and have really never been into raising strictly someone else's line.
I like to work on my own lines and use birds that fit with what I need if I need to bring in something mine are lacking.

 

[The Moonshiner]

when they breed away from one trait that has a negative impact on exhibition quality, particularly coloration, it has a negative impact on egg color. Yes, you can select for egg color, you can select for exhibition quality, but sometimes things are antagonistic. These traits seemed to be linked, so it is not likely to have one without the other. So, saying Marans can be top qualuty and have the darkest egg color us misleading,

Your posts are either vague, confusing or just unclear. To me anyways. Guess you have to repeat yourself in hopes for me that it is reworded or something so it makes sense.
So let me break this post down so you may get an idea of what I mean.
First the last part about "the darkest egg" just to be clear I'm not saying the darkest eggs out there like 9s. The post was about "good" color so I'm talking like 7s or so. I think most would think a 7 was really good color.
The first sentence is confusing. Breeding away from what trait? Or example of trait are you talking about? I talk about breeding towards all traits concerning exhibition quality and egg color. Not sure where breeding away from a trait comes into this.
Are you saying when they breed away from one trait as in color? Like they have a bad pattern or say lack of copper and when they breed towards fixing that that that also effects egg color or what?
You seem to be saying that egg color is linked to other traits. You mention it is genetic. How so? What is egg color genetically liked to to makes it impossible to have both?
I really don't get what you're saying. Are you saying good egg color is linked to traits so good egg color has to equal bad traits for exhibition and vice versa so a trait that equals good exhibition quality has to equal not so good egg color?
I don't get the link between egg color and any other trait.
Aren't they all traits? And all can be bred towards at the same time?

I know like with Ameraucana people say blue egg genes are linked to pea combs so when working with olive eggers to keep the blue egg genes follow the pea comb.
That's not neccesarly true though. I've seen pea comb chickens that lay brown eggs and I know legbars lay blue eggs and are single combed. So I know this is a bit of topic for marans discussion but using it as an example that I get some genes may be linked but you can have one without the other or breed in or out one without the other.