Why hasn't anyone written a Cornish X page? Forget it. I'll will!!!

[Buster52]

Quote:
Well, you are hijacking the thread, but since it is yours to hijack if you wish...

Let me start by saying "unsustainable" means a system can't be sustained. It can't go on this way indefinitely. Sooner or later, that system is going to break down. Any system that depends on a finite resource like oil is going to eventually collapse, because sooner or later you are either going to run out of oil, or it is going to be so rare that it will be prohibitively expensive to farm depending on it. The entire meat bird industry is built on oil. That makes it unsustainable. If you have to ship birds in from great distances, you are using up those finite resources that will eventually drive the price of shipping so high that you will no longer be able to ship your birds. And that is the most simplistic way I can put it, as it is far more complicated than that.

And that is only on the resource side. That doesn't even consider the environmental side, which is what I generally mean by sustainable.

The second part of the above, you might as well just build some big buildings and raise 10,000 birds at a time. Because you just can't compete with the industrial system in your back yard. You can't grow your birds cheaper or faster. The entire reason folks are likely to beat a path to your door is because your product is better than the other guy's, not because you have more of them or you grew them faster. To the typical consumer of backyard poultry, things like taste and sustainability is everything. If they wanted cheaap food, yours would not be the stuff they would buy because there is no way you can sell your birds as cheaply as Walmart can. You would go broke in hearbeat.

Edited to fix stupid mistake.

 

[TimG]

Quote:
You lost me!

The entire reason folks are likely to beat a path to your door is because your product is better than the other guy's

Small quibble: I think it should be "because they consider your product to be better than". Different people will have different ideas of what "better" means.​

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Sustainable broilers are only exist if you can take your own and breed them yourself to get more broiler chicks. Which I believe you can... over a few years.

Problem is, many believe that their is only GP stock and P stock (grandparent and parent) but that is just not the case. It goes a lot more into detail than that. There are four generations that are involved to get just one parent breeder...

For instance you have your Pedigree lines were the birds breed true... these are heavily culled and selected for obvious weight gains. Each cross there after improves the weight gain efficiency. The chicks form the pedigree lines then go to GGP stock which are heavily culled again but not as much as the Pedigrees.

The next line down would be the GP stock to produce the Parent stock..... which you then get your broilers.

So in short it's

Pedigree
GGP Stock
GP Sotck
P stock

I'm not exactly sure how the crosses would work but I do know that their is more than just GP stock and P stock... which makes thing very complicated. FWIW the GP stock in 2002 cost $27.00 / hen chick. The parent stock is $2.50 / chick. The Pedigree and GGP stock are the lines that are secretly guarded. None of these chicks or breeding stock can be sold.... they are kept in complexes which is kinda scary.

There are only a handful of companies that deal with the pedigree and GGP Stock... Aviagen 44% (Arbor Acres, Lohmann Indian River, Ross).... Tyson 33% (Cobb-Vantress and Avian)... Hubbard 10% .... and... Hybro 5% These are the companies that invest the millions into their genetics program to improve their lines...

These companies then sell the eggs from the GGP stock to brokers or other hatcheries.... These eggs will then hatch in GP stock... Which will be sold to whoever that would want to run and operate their own Parent stock broilers... which could sell eggs to hatcheries that sell the broiler chicks to us. (I can't think of any hatcheries that raise the broiler breeders anymore... most buy eggs and sell the chicks).

The bottom line is that this system is very complex and not sustainable in anyway... there is so many hands and companies involved in producing the "broilers" as we know them. A look behind the scenes and will see that it's a system that very fine tuned. The only way to really make the broiler sustainable is to hold back your own broilers and keep them to breeding age and tinker with the great genetics that are in the lineage of these birds. Over time ( a few years) you could develop a very sustainable fast growing broiler to meet the demands of backyard enthusiast.

 

[Buster52]

Quote:
You lost me!

Oops! Poorly worded. Should be "unsustainable". Sustainable means it CAN be sustained.

Thanks for catching that!

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

If the definition of unsustainable is simply having infrastructure behind the system then our entire country is unsustainable! Ninety-eight percent (+/-) of our country's population live in cities and towns, just think about all the infrastructure needed to support that: Electricity is produced in large power plants, water systems aren't in each person's backyard, the list could go on and on.

The current system that produces protein as both eggs and meat provides food for Hundreds of Millions of people, it has it flaws. Even the staunchest supports of these operations will admit it is not perfect. However switching to a system of hundreds of thousands of micro farmers, while utopian and viewed a sustainable by some, would have its own set of flaws and shortcomings.

This issue is NOT black and white, Small Good Big Bad as these threads typically imply. Sometimes we all need to think outside of our own microcosms to see a bigger picture.

Hopefully Agriculture will that the challenge given by the President of the American Farm Bureau at their convention this week. His speech was filled with some strong language that I hope is heeded.

http://www.fb.org/index.php?fuseaction=newsroom.newsfocus&year=2010&file=nr0110.html

Jim

 

[Buster52]

Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay :

If the definition of unsustainable is simply having infrastructure behind the system then our entire country is unsustainable!

Now you're catching on.

BTW, your link doesn't work.​

 

[Bossroo]

Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay :

If the definition of unsustainable is simply having infrastructure behind the system then our entire country is unsustainable! Ninety-eight percent (+/-) of our country's population live in cities and towns, just think about all the infrastructure needed to support that: Electricity is produced in large power plants, water systems aren't in each person's backyard, the list could go on and on.

The current system that produces protein as both eggs and meat provides food for Hundreds of Millions of people, it has it flaws. Even the staunchest supports of these operations will admit it is not perfect. However switching to a system of hundreds of thousands of micro farmers, while utopian and viewed a sustainable by some, would have its own set of flaws and shortcomings.

This issue is NOT black and white, Small Good Big Bad as these threads typically imply. Sometimes we all need to think outside of our own microcosms to see a bigger picture.

Hopefully Agriculture will that the challenge given by the President of the American Farm Bureau at their convention this week. His speech was filled with some strong language that I hope is heeded.

http://www.fb.org/index.php?fuseaction=newsroom.newsfocus&year=2010&file=nr0110.html

Jim

Does it mean that having every family raise a flock of dual purpose chickens in their apartment for eggs and meat and a vegy garden on their deck or patio and a flock of sheep and goats in City parks for meat, fiber and milk would not be self sustainable? Now that everyone is eating healthier and toxic chemicals eliminated , wouldn't healthcare be cheaper ? Wouldn't it eliminate the need for the factory farms as well as the fossil fuel gobbling tractors and trucks also cars and grocery stores as everything that one would need would be at their fingertips? Couldn't Then all of these soil depleted sterile lands and cement covered roads be returned to wilderness as they were for eons?​

 

[Buster52]

Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay :

Hopefully Agriculture will that the challenge given by the President of the American Farm Bureau at their convention this week. His speech was filled with some strong language that I hope is heeded.

http://www.fb.org/index.php?fuseaction=newsroom.newsfocus&year=2010&file=nr0110.html

I've heard this clever spin before (although the one redefining sustainability as economic, that is a new one... and a bit comical). Big Ag is not going to change its ways or go quietly. They would rather go to war (hence the Patton quote). It isn't a war they can win. They can change now voluntarily, or change later when they have no choice. But change they will.

I recently attended a conference on beef production where they flew in a Washington DC lobbyist to make essentially the same points, using the same propaganda techniques and the same misinformation and misrepresentations. He made like the "activists" are the enemy, and the big beef companies that was bleeding these same farmers dry were the salvation. Whereas, a system based on small to medium farms and a localized economies far favored the people in the room over the current system. While they now receive pennies on the dollar for their beef, they would under a local agricultural system receive most of that dollar.

While the fellow in your link claims he represents all farmers, he then turns around and mocks small farmers. That should tell you something right there.

He also goes on about climate change legislation. And the irony is, if something isn't done about climate change, the future of agriculture in this country will be extremely dim, indeed. You can't grow crops or raise animals if there is no rain and the atmosphere is desert hot.

The fact is that medium size organic is MORE productive than conventional big farms, not less. If you want to feed the world, that is how you do it. It is how things will eventually be.​

 

[Brunty_Farms]

The fact is that medium size organic is MORE productive than conventional big farms, not less. If you want to feed the world, that is how you do it. It is how things will eventually be

I doubt that will ever happen. Small to medium sized growers would need to receive subsidies to feed the world. There is too many low income families to pay for chicken/eggs/organic produce that cost double or triple then conventional. Bottom line is money, not the well being of the environment, you the consumer, or the animals. We are all players in their game. You can only hope to take a small percentage of that away buy supporting small local farmers.

I like the way you think... I used to think like that too. But reality is much different. It will get much worse before it gets better, especially with genetic companies getting closer with cloning certain traits. I think the tip of the iceberg is just being touched in the field of genetics and this only helps the big ag producers... not the little guy. Too much money is involved for it to just disappear, the status quo will always be here... except for in the future there will be more choices. Consumers will be more educated, wether they support local or not... organic or no... it comes down to the consumer. Unless the price of organics and sustainable agriculture drops drastically, many will have no choice but to buy from the cheapest place. Money talks in this world... that will never change.​

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

Quote:
Would you be so kind as to provide the data or the citation for this fact? I have read this in serveral discussion and have yet to review the data that was used to draw this conclusion.

Someone has a quote in their signature line that I really like "If farms were smaller, communities would be closer." I like this and wish we could return to that, however getting people to return to the drudgery of the farm after experiencing the 9 to 5 routine will be difficult.

Like it or not the cheap food we have enjoyed in the USA has allowed us to be MORE prosperous. The facts bear out aht we pay less of our income for food than the majority of the First World. This allows us to have greater disposable income for plasma televisions, SUVs, and larger houses in the suburbs.

Jim