I could care less about organic/non organic. I want my fruits vegetables, etc sprayed so there are no suprises (bugs, worms, etc) inside the fruit.
Why I'm Against Organic (read all the way through before you flame)
- Thread starter 95yj
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- Mar 29, 2009
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Organic is a big rage here. $4 for a pound of green beans. $1 for a tomato
In my opinion, to be truly organic, you need to cover your crops from the rain and filter the water for your animals drinking water.
When I mention this to organic Farmers they tell me it is the GMO grain they don't like in the animal food but they don't say anything about covering their crops against dirty rainwater or filtering city water. They just look at me with a blank look. JMO
I don't cover my veggies from the rain. I save all my gray water (laundry water) in a 250 gallon tank and pump it out to water my garden. Keeps the pests and disease down. I use "natural" type laundry soap and Borax.
In my opinion, to be truly organic, you need to cover your crops from the rain and filter the water for your animals drinking water.
When I mention this to organic Farmers they tell me it is the GMO grain they don't like in the animal food but they don't say anything about covering their crops against dirty rainwater or filtering city water. They just look at me with a blank look. JMO
I don't cover my veggies from the rain. I save all my gray water (laundry water) in a 250 gallon tank and pump it out to water my garden. Keeps the pests and disease down. I use "natural" type laundry soap and Borax.
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Can you explain further? Is it the certification costs? Decreased yields during the transition? What are the costs "to stay that way"?
Can you explain further? Is it the certification costs? Decreased yields during the transition? What are the costs "to stay that way"?
- Apr 19, 2009
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That's great! Have you implemented a lot of these endeavors or is this something you have grown up with/things your parents have always done?
There's nothing wrong with having an "agricultural guru" so to speak, just be careful you don't allow that guru to completely shape every thought and opinion you form. If you read other people, research agricultural history, think critically about what you learn and still find you agree strongly with Joel Salatin, great! You found your path. If not, that's okay too.
As for reading material, have you read Michael Pollan? Barbara Kingslover's Animal, Vegetable, Miracle is another interesting book that can get your wheels turning. There is a more textbook-like historical one I read a while back, the author I can't remember right off the top of my head, but I believe it was called The History of American Agriculture in the 20th Century or at least very similar. It too is good food for thought and is one of those that can give you a little perspective on both side of the organic v. non-organic fence. If you peruse college textbook sites online you will often be able to find agricultural textbooks for next to nothing, colleges change the edition that they use often which makes the previous edition worth very little. The nice thing is recent editions that aren't in use right now often are only very marginally different than those still in use.
I would also encourage you to google "Small Farm [insert random area of the country here]" and click through to the farm sites you find. If the farm has a blog grab the RSS and add it to a reader. Those blogs can give you an inside look at daily life on a farm, the thought processes of the different farmers, etc. It's like reading a farmer's journal, great fodder! You can also find sites for farms if you go to localharvest.org and search there.
Speaking of journals, btw, ask your history teacher if he/she knows of any historical journals that you might be able to access. Journals from farmers and their wives past are really very interesting and can give you great perspective as to where our system came from and what going back to prior techniques might mean. Great stuff!
Keep learning and thinking, the next generation of agriculture needs young people like you who are passionate about doing what's best all around not just for one interest group or another.
That's great! Have you implemented a lot of these endeavors or is this something you have grown up with/things your parents have always done?
There's nothing wrong with having an "agricultural guru" so to speak, just be careful you don't allow that guru to completely shape every thought and opinion you form. If you read other people, research agricultural history, think critically about what you learn and still find you agree strongly with Joel Salatin, great! You found your path. If not, that's okay too.
As for reading material, have you read Michael Pollan? Barbara Kingslover's Animal, Vegetable, Miracle is another interesting book that can get your wheels turning. There is a more textbook-like historical one I read a while back, the author I can't remember right off the top of my head, but I believe it was called The History of American Agriculture in the 20th Century or at least very similar. It too is good food for thought and is one of those that can give you a little perspective on both side of the organic v. non-organic fence. If you peruse college textbook sites online you will often be able to find agricultural textbooks for next to nothing, colleges change the edition that they use often which makes the previous edition worth very little. The nice thing is recent editions that aren't in use right now often are only very marginally different than those still in use.
I would also encourage you to google "Small Farm [insert random area of the country here]" and click through to the farm sites you find. If the farm has a blog grab the RSS and add it to a reader. Those blogs can give you an inside look at daily life on a farm, the thought processes of the different farmers, etc. It's like reading a farmer's journal, great fodder! You can also find sites for farms if you go to localharvest.org and search there.
Speaking of journals, btw, ask your history teacher if he/she knows of any historical journals that you might be able to access. Journals from farmers and their wives past are really very interesting and can give you great perspective as to where our system came from and what going back to prior techniques might mean. Great stuff!
Keep learning and thinking, the next generation of agriculture needs young people like you who are passionate about doing what's best all around not just for one interest group or another.
- Apr 19, 2009
- 4,203
- 172
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Whoops! Forgot one more thing. If you're also interested in the livestock side of agriculture -- Americans can't be without their meat!
-- you may also want to look into Storey's Guides to Raising. They give a really good starter-level overview of raising livestock. And then if one particular type of livestock peaks your interest further you can delve into more in depth pieces of literature from there. I find many of the Storey's Guides are pretty well balanced between organic v non as well so it's one of those things where you can learn the information and think about it to form your own opinions about what each piece of the puzzle means.
Most folks get around this certification around here by listing their produce as noncertified organic....the general public seems to not care a wit about certified or non.
One could argue sustainability til doomsday but, until you try it, I would say you'll never know for sure if this method of farming will sustain you and your lifestyle, income, etc.
Some farmers are making the effort to plant seed into cover crops to decrease soil erosion, use crop rotation to encourage good soil structure and nutrition, and let fields rest at times. Responsible farming doesn't have to mean all or nothing...it means changing some of the ways so that they can keep farming alive and people and the Earth healthy.
I guess its all in how rich you really want to be? If you want a quick return and sure money so you can pay off huge farm and equipment loans, then commercial methods may be the way to go.
If you want to work a little harder, use your head to come up with better solutions than a quick fix and are willing to live your life according to what you earn~like the rest of us usually have to do~then I would say a more natural method of farming should suffice...at the very least you can feel good about what you do.
I'm always curious as to how farmers will claim that you can't make money by farming...but they continue to farm year after year despite these claims. The definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results each time.
One could argue sustainability til doomsday but, until you try it, I would say you'll never know for sure if this method of farming will sustain you and your lifestyle, income, etc.
Some farmers are making the effort to plant seed into cover crops to decrease soil erosion, use crop rotation to encourage good soil structure and nutrition, and let fields rest at times. Responsible farming doesn't have to mean all or nothing...it means changing some of the ways so that they can keep farming alive and people and the Earth healthy.
I guess its all in how rich you really want to be? If you want a quick return and sure money so you can pay off huge farm and equipment loans, then commercial methods may be the way to go.
If you want to work a little harder, use your head to come up with better solutions than a quick fix and are willing to live your life according to what you earn~like the rest of us usually have to do~then I would say a more natural method of farming should suffice...at the very least you can feel good about what you do.
I'm always curious as to how farmers will claim that you can't make money by farming...but they continue to farm year after year despite these claims. The definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results each time.
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Are you sure about that? Which chemicals are you talking about? There is a very small list of non-organic inputs that can be used in organic production and even then, only under specific circumstances.
Are you sure about that? Which chemicals are you talking about? There is a very small list of non-organic inputs that can be used in organic production and even then, only under specific circumstances.
and it has become very expensive and difficult to become certified organic, especially if your a small scale farmer
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How expensive is it? Last year I sold $95,000 in USDA Certified Organic Eggs. Of that $95,000, I saw about $25,000 in profit. My certification costs were around $500 for the inspection and $700 in user fees. The user fees were based on .75% of gross sales, or 75 cents per $100 in sales.
Edited to add: The state Dept of Agriculture also reimburses part of my certification costs. They reimburse 75% of costs up to $1000 or in my case, $750. In the end my share was about $450 (on $95,000 in sales).
.
How expensive is it? Last year I sold $95,000 in USDA Certified Organic Eggs. Of that $95,000, I saw about $25,000 in profit. My certification costs were around $500 for the inspection and $700 in user fees. The user fees were based on .75% of gross sales, or 75 cents per $100 in sales.
Edited to add: The state Dept of Agriculture also reimburses part of my certification costs. They reimburse 75% of costs up to $1000 or in my case, $750. In the end my share was about $450 (on $95,000 in sales).
My first problem with organics is that it is hurting local farmers, yes you read that right, hurting them. In my area to be even considered worth buying from at a farm stand or farmers market you have to be certified organic, a lengthy and costly process. Several farms could not afford to make the leap to "organic" and as a result closed down.
There must be a large demand for organic products in your area. If you aren't producing what the consumer wants to buy then you are doing it wrong. You don't show up with eggplants and beets if nobody wants to buy them.
There must be a large demand for organic products in your area. If you aren't producing what the consumer wants to buy then you are doing it wrong. You don't show up with eggplants and beets if nobody wants to buy them.
Also, the organic feed you buy at the feed store is probably sprayed with pyrethrum, a pretty scary chemical that can cause all kinds of problems.
Pyrethrums are natural insecticides extracted from plants. Fairly expensive too. To say that organic feed is "probably" sprayed with it is stretching things a bit.
Pyrethrums are natural insecticides extracted from plants. Fairly expensive too. To say that organic feed is "probably" sprayed with it is stretching things a bit.
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What is organic?
For example, under organic legislation a large scale organic vegetable operation will use tilling as weed control. The land can be tilled 2-3 times more than a typical industrial settup, this creates massive erosion problems and topsoil loss (good soil has become a very, very rare commodity wherever you go, erosion is a much larger issue than many people think) Is this better or worse than the typical herbicides?
The National Organic Plan has stipulations on good conservation practices. The land does not wash away if it is done properly. For example, planting buffer zones of grasses between cultivated crops and waterways.
The National Organic Plan has stipulations on good conservation practices. The land does not wash away if it is done properly. For example, planting buffer zones of grasses between cultivated crops and waterways.
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