Won't the USA ever learn?????? A little world history

[Dunkopf]

Remember back in 2003 or 04 he decided to publicly make kissie kissie with Bush. They held him out as one of our axis of evil that is so afraid of us that they are now an allie. I bet he receives foreign aid

 

[Dunkopf]

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I'm a vet but was between actual shooting wars. It's hard to say how Afghanistan actually is. Even from a soldiers perspective. All the info is grapevine info. I think the news they get is FOX

Since I was in for 4 years I know how they control information to troops. I remember the daily formations and the speech we got every Monday and the info that got put out. Somehow I don't think the Captain is going to stand up in front of the formation and tell the troops they aren't accomplishing anything. I'm sure most of the officers get fed some pretty good info, but it's all controlled. I would really like to know the actual big picture.

I think we are getting a lot done over there. I hate the fact that we're there, but I'm beginning to think it might be necessary just for the purpose of keeping a government in place that we can hopefully control. Eventually we'll be able to have a conflict in every country over there and supply them with weapons and technology to control elements we don't like. How sustainable is that and what's the choice.

So then what do we do to keep the right guy in power. That whole place is a powder keg. What a nightmare. 911 has cost a lot of lives and limbs and made a lot of people a lot of money.

 

[elizabethbinary]

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It depends a lot on who's President and how he is perceived by other countries. The USA was very popular right after the 2008 election. Then the effects of bad decisions made during 1992-2008 caused all of Europe to go into a recession and our popularity dropped a bit.

We're still a lot more popular than we were in 2004-2008. At that time we were just considered to be warmongers with no concern for anyone but ourselves. Isn't it funny how less than 51% of our people vote for someone yet the world views it as everyone in our country agreeing with whoever got elected. Sometimes because of our electorate system less than half the country votes for someone and they get elected.

When I was stationed in Germany I talked to a lot of Germans of course. This was 81-83 and Reagan was in the WH. A lot of Germans resented our heavy presence there. The older people who had been around during WWII appreciated us because they had seen Hitler up close. The young people felt that their country could take care of itself. Most everyone agreed that American tourist were terrible though. They felt they were pompous and full of themselves. There were a lot of European tourist too. The locals of course felt more of a kinship to them since they shared a continent and were aware of European customs.

It's always been the Ugly American. Not well justified, but there anyway.

News to me America was popular right after 2008. That would've been the same year a bunch of teenagers heard my accent (which I have had to take great pains to cover for these very reasons) and decided to throw very large rocks at me and taunt me. I had to hide in a police station. Again, I'm aware this is just an anecdote - but I've never seen Americans viewed as popular anywhere in any year and I travel quite frequently. There's a handful of people here and there that like Americans and most that tolerate the country - but if you mention America even in passing sometimes - HOO boy do the words fly!

It's mostly the "warmongers with no concern for anyone but ourselves" that you have right. It's the '____ what everyone thinks' attitude (sorry for the people who used it hahaha) and the conceitedness of America - not as a 'has we're the best' conceit but as a general all-encompassing, "What, there's a country CALLED Kazakstan for REAL?" conceitedness. While I'm aware there's different types of Americans (duh, I am one) this is the #1 complaint I hear about Americans - the American attitude. It's the blinders others countries see Americans wear. The blind faith in their government, the lack of respect for other cultures (mostly because the people have not taken the time to understand them, not because they mean to), as well as the desire America appears to have to destroy anything that it doesn't like, even if it doesn't know what that really IS. It's really hard to explain how foreigners view the "American attitude", and I'm not saying it's right in any way, but it's the conversation I have most when someone hears me say 'banana' wrong. "Wow, you don't act like an American!" What does an American act like, exactly? ... well that's the bit you guys don't wanna hear. Or in general - refuse to (which is what foreigners hate).

Again, not saying it's right or wrong or that America is bad or good - I'm just saying currently this is main problem other citizens of countries have with the citizens and government of America in my experience. There is a strong American-style attitude, I agree, but it's not necessarially negative - every country has it's main basic structural attitude and way it views life. It's really really difficult to figure unless you're not there - being in America makes it hard to see the differences because America sees them as, well, they don't see them because theyr'e around it every single day. Same how I don't see a pack of beers every night as an alcoholic because in Australia, that's perfectly normal. (I only see it as different because I have the American background to go, wait, 6 beers is a lot every day....)

Of course you know all this, you were stationed in Germany. I'm just relating my own current experiences to you.

Thank you for your insight and input, I loved it.

 

[dacjohns]

Only read the first post so far but this looks like potential for a train wreck.

 

[elizabethbinary]

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Actually the conversation is quite intelligent. Don't ruin it! I'm enjoying learning.

 

[dacjohns]

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Not right now.

 

[dacjohns]

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Actually the conversation is quite intelligent. Don't ruin it! I'm enjoying learning.

I don't plan on it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

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(This bit is about Gaddafi.) Probably, but the biggest foreign aid to him was likely when we stopped sending cruise missiles out looking for him. Blair probably had more to do with him dropping his nuclear program than we Americans through the negotiations, though those cruise missiles probably had a significant influence. Gaddafi turned from his nuclear weapons development through "secret" negotiations. If Wikileaks had been releasing the transcripts of those secret negotiations, do you thing the outcome (Gaddafi dropping his nuclear development program) would have been the same? Just some food for thought.

My army experience was a long time before Afghanistan and Iraq but let me tell a story about a conversation I had with a guy in a bar in Houston who claimed to have been in Iraq pretty early.

Shock and Awe was over. Militarily, we were in clean-up mode. Significant clean-up mode but the main army units were out of action. At the start we were seen by many as liberators. Someone would come to report "There is a bad guy in Apartment 4C in this apartment building." They knew this because their daughter and her family lived in 4B. The early mode was that the dude in 4C would be taken out fairly quietly and without a lot of collateral damage, but at some risk to the people taking him out. The guy I was talking to claimed to be one of the ones taking them out. I admit he was somewhat prejudiced, but he thought we were winning the battle of the minds.

Then our policy changed. When someone reported a bad guy, heavy artillery took him out, which caused collateral damage. This was a lot safer to our guys. The reports of a bad guy in 4C dried up. Who was going to report a bad guy if that put their daughter and her family who lived in the area at risk, let alone assured destruction of their home? Who do you think started winning the battle of the minds? How much easier was it for the opposition to find recruits?

How much did that policy change extend the war over there? How many American lives did "taking the easy way" cost because of extending the war? I don't know if it was the right or wrong decision, but in my gut I feel it was the wrong decision. But I was not there and neither were my boys. That would certainly influence my opinion on right and wrong.

Each decision has consequences. Once you make a decision and start on the next leg of the journey, you don't know what the actual consequences will be. You just have to try to make the best decision based on the information you currently have. Short term consequences are often not that hard to see. Long term consequences are harder. Short term consequences often determine elections here. We vote before the long term consequences come into play, and most don't recognize the long term linkage anyway.

What criteria do we use to make these decisions? I believe our military power and a lot of our moral power are based on our international economy. If we can't afford our military, we can't keep it strong. If we can't show that our way of life is a better way of life and gives people's kids a hope for a better future, we lose our chance to influence people's directions the way we want to influence them. I'm not saying take over a country militarily to promote American businesses, but I am saying American business interests is a legitimate criteria for our government to consider. I also think basic right and wrong is an important criteria.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

 

[redhen]

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LOL..what you say is very true...
Although.. those other countries wont hesitate to take our protection or aide though, while they still down us out of the other side of their mouths..

 

[BlackBart]

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or it got dumped in the ocean