Won't the USA ever learn?????? A little world history

[chickened]

I partially agree with the you someone has the truth. My Bible says there will never be peace until... well maybe go read it for yourself. Funny that that thing they are doing in Egypt right now uhhh, whats it called... Oh ya, protesting that an American thing, peaceful protests that is. What you are really seeing in Egypt is an awakening thanks in part to the interernet and the influence of the U.S. and yes you do get the good with the bad always.
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[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

You sound a bit salty about your time collecting a government paycheck.

That's funny, you gave me a laugh there. I never thought of being shot at as "collecting a paycheck". You would think it would pay better but it didn't, maybe the miltary should pay by the bullet recieved. A couple purple hearts and $5 bucks will get you a cup of coffee at starbucks.


But that wasn't the idea of this thread. The idea was about bad choices by the US government in supporting the wrong people time and time again and how history repeats itself over and over again and still we don't learn.

Steve​

 

[Dunkopf]

We're actually putting ourselves in more danger by being over there. For every young militant we kill there are 3 brothers or friends of that militant that join the cause against us. For every village we destroy with a drone to take out some key Taliban members we create hundreds of enemies amongst surviving friends and relatives

Our only reason to be over there is to keep the Taliban from taking over the government of Afghanistan. Thereby jeopardizing our future supply of oil. Sure there's a lot of money for the oil corps, but it's about our future economy. Face it, this country has to have oil and even if all the restrictions were lifted on drilling and destroying the environment and our coastlines extracting the oil, we still wouldn't have enough to meet our demand if the Middle east cut us off. Afghanistan is a major transportation route. That's why it's been fought over for centuries. Next will be Yemen.

The Taliban is the 2010 version of Communism to us. I don't know how they are actually running this war. The gov learned from Viet Nam as far as how much to show on TV and how much to tell the public. They still haven't figured out that some wars can't be won. I don't think that's what their trying to do on this one.

I feel safer about my future oil needs because of our troops over in the Mideast. I think the security in our country is more a function of intelligence and good police work. If the Taliban or Al Quida was hell bent on bombing us again, I'm sure they would have already. I think Osama has accomplished most of his goals with us. He caused financial chaos and fear. He led our leaders into a war in Iraq. He knew that Jr would be going there and it would cost trillions of dollars and many lives.

Our destiny has been set. Too bad our politicians didn't follow Carters lead on energy. We've had 30 years since the 78 oil embargo. The writing has been on the wall in big neon letters. Yet our politicians after Carter decided to disregard it.

 

[Royd]

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By that reasoning, this world is one big Hatfields and McCoys. For every American serviceman killed or wounded, they create dozens of enemies, in the immediate and extended families of those harmed....Or are we just so much better than those poppy farmers, that we put it all in perspective?
You can only put so many people on the front line, without a permanent supply line of food and hardware...If everyone takes up arms, the war would last about a month.

Our only reason to be over there is to keep the Taliban from taking over the government of Afghanistan. Thereby jeopardizing our future supply of oil. Sure there's a lot of money for the oil corps, but it's about our future economy. Face it, this country has to have oil and even if all the restrictions were lifted on drilling and destroying the environment and our coastlines extracting the oil, we still wouldn't have enough to meet our demand if the Middle east cut us off. Afghanistan is a major transportation route. That's why it's been fought over for centuries. Next will be Yemen.

When you have a president, who intentionally shuts down oil exploration, to push an alternative, untested agenda, of course we are going to run out of oil, thus, forcing us to purchase from the MUSLIM countries.....Any coincidence...I think not.
We could, immediately, put hundreds of thousands back to work, with the stroke of a pen. The national govt should deed all offshore waters to the immediate states and, as in Alaska, let those revenues go to the states....You would see a ton of drilling and competition.
No, I don't believe we are running out of oil....Seems, everywhere in the world, when they decide to poke a hole in the earth, there's a new discovery, so I don't buy it.

Our destiny has been set. Too bad our politicians didn't follow Carters lead on energy. We've had 30 years since the 78 oil embargo. The writing has been on the wall in big neon letters. Yet our politicians after Carter decided to disregard it

. Technology advances quickly enough, today, that if wind and solar were truly a viable replacement for current fuels, it would have already been done. As for nuclear, it was those wildeyed, peace loving earth children, who have stood in the way of the most effecient, cleanest and probably safest energy source we have.....Talk about standing in the way of progress.​

 

[seedcorn]

intentionally shuts down oil exploration, to push an alternative, untested agenda

Can't have it both ways. When we strictly oil dependent, people complained that we were at the mercy of the the Arab countries. No one wanted oil wells near them or core samples near them. Then we look for different ways (of course they are unproven, they are new) people complain that we don't know the long term effects.......duh...

Can't make everyone happy, best world is everyone is unhappy, then everyone is happy, they have someone to be mad at.​

 

[Dunkopf]

Quote:
By that reasoning, this world is one big Hatfields and McCoys. For every American serviceman killed or wounded, they create dozens of enemies, in the immediate and extended families of those harmed....Or are we just so much better than those poppy farmers, that we put it all in perspective?
You can only put so many people on the front line, without a permanent supply line of food and hardware...If everyone takes up arms, the war would last about a month.

Our only reason to be over there is to keep the Taliban from taking over the government of Afghanistan. Thereby jeopardizing our future supply of oil. Sure there's a lot of money for the oil corps, but it's about our future economy. Face it, this country has to have oil and even if all the restrictions were lifted on drilling and destroying the environment and our coastlines extracting the oil, we still wouldn't have enough to meet our demand if the Middle east cut us off. Afghanistan is a major transportation route. That's why it's been fought over for centuries. Next will be Yemen.

When you have a president, who intentionally shuts down oil exploration, to push an alternative, untested agenda, of course we are going to run out of oil, thus, forcing us to purchase from the MUSLIM countries.....Any coincidence...I think not.
We could, immediately, put hundreds of thousands back to work, with the stroke of a pen. The national govt should deed all offshore waters to the immediate states and, as in Alaska, let those revenues go to the states....You would see a ton of drilling and competition.
No, I don't believe we are running out of oil....Seems, everywhere in the world, when they decide to poke a hole in the earth, there's a new discovery, so I don't buy it.

Our destiny has been set. Too bad our politicians didn't follow Carters lead on energy. We've had 30 years since the 78 oil embargo. The writing has been on the wall in big neon letters. Yet our politicians after Carter decided to disregard it

. Technology advances quickly enough, today, that if wind and solar were truly a viable replacement for current fuels, it would have already been done. As for nuclear, it was those wildeyed, peace loving earth children, who have stood in the way of the most effecient, cleanest and probably safest energy source we have.....Talk about standing in the way of progress.​

As usual the point is totally missed as though it doesn't exist.

As usual the point is missed. Try to look beyond your front yard or parking lot. We're fighting a bunch of people that don't have a life. A large percentage are unemployed or scrape a meager living out of the ground. When their brother who has higher ideals joins the Taliban to go shoot at Americans and then gets killed. He either hears how gloriously his brother got martyred or he hears how his brother dies from a cowardly drone or jet strike. Or here I'll put in words that are easier to relate to. You belong to a militia. You're unit gets taken out by a drone belonging to an Army controlled by the evil emperor Obama. You get killed but you have 2 younger brothers 12 and 15, you were 20. Next day they are knocking at the cabin door of the rebel leaders. They know how to shoot, had a rifle since they were 5. So next thing you know they are under arms fighting a war they know nothing about based upon knowledge given to the from questionable sources.

So yes you can hide in your cocoon and believe that we don't create more enemies. Or you can use some logic.

As for the oil situation. I didn't say we were out of oil. I just said that even if all the barriers were dropped they wouldn't be able to drill their way out of this mess. We would still be very dependent upon oil from other countries. In particular the Mideast. Look at some bi-partisan facts instead of listening to anti Obama people and websites.

Yes we all know by now that solar and wind can't provide enough energy to meet our requirements. It will require nuclear and clean coal too. Most of the coal plants are still dirty and nuke plants require 10-20 years to build. They also cost around 3.5 billion each and power companies don't want to spend that much. Consumers don't want to pay the increase in cost for clean coal or nuclear. The politicians don't want to try to help out the companies because of the costs. Local governments don't want to try to pass bond issues to finance the additional costs. So we continue to suck oil. Conservation efforts are all scoffed at by people saying we don't want any guberment in our life. We're big boys we can make our own decisions. So instead of having government intervention and being forced to conserve the waste continues. Because even though we're all big boys we act like little kids. a few billion dollars a month and 200 or so dead soldiers along with a thousand arms and brain injuries is preferable to cutting back on oil use or spending some money on nuke reactors.

As a famous reality TV star once said "Drill Baby Drill".

 

[Royd]

Quote:
Can't have it both ways. When we strictly oil dependent, people complained that we were at the mercy of the the Arab countries. No one wanted oil wells near them or core samples near them. Then we look for different ways (of course they are unproven, they are new) people complain that we don't know the long term effects.......duh...

Can't make everyone happy, best world is everyone is unhappy, then everyone is happy, they have someone to be mad at.

When you have a proven and reliable source of energy, even with its few downsides, you can't shut it down, without shutting down the total economy, unless, of course, that is your desired end.

By design, we have become a nation of whining handwringers.....Oh, we can't drill off the coast of Florida. Who wants to look out from the beach and see an ugly drilling platform....Funny, you just happen to be standing on the 10th floor of an ugly condo building, which is blocking the view of the old couple, who have lived there, for years, in their bungalow.

Or how about those ugly shrimp boats, which are trawling the waters, 2 miles offshore?

Fact is, there could be platforms 10 miles offshore, and only the deepsea fishermen would know they were there, and gladly welcome them, as a temporary reef.

Oh, it would take 15 to 20 years and 4 billion dollars to build a nuclear powerplant.......Thank God, the visionaries, who opened this country up, didn't have that attitude.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Quote:
Steve, I understand what you are saying, but we have to look at it based on what we know at the time. Hindsite is fabulous.

Situation:

The leader of a country that has been friendly to the US is assassinated by religious fanatics, mainly because he recently signed a peace treaty with Isreal. He is not an especially nice guy and is actually pretty ruthless in putting down opposition. He was assassinated so maybe not ruthless enough? Open for discussion. I grant that he is probably one of these "president-for-life" types that seem to predominate in many countries around the third world. The country is a regional military power.

The constitutional successor to the assasinated president is also not an especially nice guy and is likely another "president-for-life". He is agreeable to continuing to a very large degree the policies of his assasinated predecesor which fit the US's agenda much more than the religious fanatics' announced policies. He could very much use some backing from the US to solidify his position.

This is about the time of the Iranian hostage situation, switching over from Carter to Reagan. Iran and religious fanatics are very much on everyone's mind.

Hiow do you propose we proceed?

 

[welsummerchicks]

there are actually some ridiculously cheap things that look like big plastic sausages and float on the ocean water, and absorb energy from motion of the waves. I think Portugal has started using them - they have wind mills too.

Holland is big into wind energy - they have these gigantic modern wind mills along the bay and they generate a huge amount of electricity.

I also think solar energy is going to be really good, despite the bad press it gets from some corners. We will be getting solar for our place in future, and then we will have free electricity. I'm looking forward to it, especially since I think the power companies rates are only going to go up more and more. I don't think all the negative stuff said about it is true. I think some of the poorest countries in the world with lots of solar exposure could wind up getting rich selling electricity to others, LOL.

Other countries are making the change and somehow affording it. Portugal is not exactly rich.

It always costs something to get into new technology, but since oil is finite and in the hands of other countries, alternatives look interesting.

 

[Dunkopf]

Quote:
Can't have it both ways. When we strictly oil dependent, people complained that we were at the mercy of the the Arab countries. No one wanted oil wells near them or core samples near them. Then we look for different ways (of course they are unproven, they are new) people complain that we don't know the long term effects.......duh...

Can't make everyone happy, best world is everyone is unhappy, then everyone is happy, they have someone to be mad at.

When you have a proven and reliable source of energy, even with its few downsides, you can't shut it down, without shutting down the total economy, unless, of course, that is your desired end.

By design, we have become a nation of whining handwringers.....Oh, we can't drill off the coast of Florida. Who wants to look out from the beach and see an ugly drilling platform....Funny, you just happen to be standing on the 10th floor of an ugly condo building, which is blocking the view of the old couple, who have lived there, for years, in their bungalow.

Or how about those ugly shrimp boats, which are trawling the waters, 2 miles offshore?

Fact is, there could be platforms 10 miles offshore, and only the deepsea fishermen would know they were there, and gladly welcome them, as a temporary reef.

Oh, it would take 15 to 20 years and 4 billion dollars to build a nuclear powerplant.......Thank God, the visionaries, who opened this country up, didn't have that attitude.

Hey Royd. Google Nuclear Power and do a little research. I used to work in the industry. I know how long it takes to build a nuke plant. Your fantasies have too many holes in them. I'm not blind enough to think that we can run this country on wind and solar alone. I do realize that you can't snap your fingers and make things happen. Bewitched was just a comedy.

No the visionaries that killed all the Indians and raped the environment didn't have any problems with doing whatever they wanted to. Try being a Governor and getting a ballot initiative for a 2.3 billion dollar nuclear plant passed. Never mind the people that don't want it in their back yard. Big guberment can come in and use imminent domain. After all it's a good topic to complain and whine about, but as long as it's someone elses backyard who cares. Then try being a Congressman and passing a bill giving states money to build a nuke plant. All the sudden you got a bunch of Tea Partiers whining about paying an extra dollar out of their pocket each week for something as stupid as independence from Mid East oil. Why do that they say. We can just drill baby drill. In 20 years we can have the whole country covered with wells and use all our aquifers for pumping oil out of the shale.

No we'll be in the Mid East for many years. Most likely till the wells over there run dry. We're not fighting the Commies this time. We're fighting the American need for oil and the need for oil in China and other developing countries. I know that Obama says it so it must be wrong, but we need to get it in gear. I'm sure he'll be doing what he can to open up oil development. He's pretty centrist for a far left socialist. Of course you have to actually listen to him instead of selected sound bites to understand his message. Even then some people don't get it.