Worming effectively and naturally without throwing out eggs

[lazy gardener]

Many parasitic worms have an intermediate host, so are not passed directly from one animal to an other. Eggs are passed from the animal to the soil, then the eggs are picked up by the intermediary, where they mature, before moving onto the final host.

 

[Ms Biddy]

Puppies and chickens can both complete the roundworm life cycle and pass adult worms and eggs in their poop. From what I've read older dogs that show no symptoms of adult worms can still harbor oocysts in their tissue that are resistant to common wormers since they are outside the intestinal tract. These activate when a female dog is pregnant and can infect unborn puppies and continue shedding through her milk. This is why roundworms are so common in puppies even when people think their adult dogs are worm free.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

I agree with the advice and information given above, with one exception. Most worms are species specific. Your dogs can't give your chickens roundworms nor vice versa. That particular cross is not possible. (Some roundworms can infect different species, like goat to cow I believe, but canine to poultry is not one of them.)

Of the poultry type worms, only roundworms can occasionally migrate to eggs, which would be totally yucky to find. The rest stay within the body of the bird (causing general havoc to the gut and immune system). Worm overload can easily cause unthriftiness and anemia. Lowered production is a common result, and even death in extreme loads.

Roundworms typically look like thin spaghetti in poo. It is one of the few worms you can see with the human eye. Cecal worms are tiny thread like in appearance and appear in the cecal. Capillary are another type but are so small they are not easily seen by the naked eye. None of these worms need an intermediate host. They are picked up through direct contact. Eggs (or young worms) in feces eaten as the next bird pecks the soil.

If you can easily see the worms, it is almost assuredly roundworm.

It takes 3 weeks for the roundworm cycle to complete from egg to adult worm laying eggs, so worming once and waiting will not eradicate the next generation as the wormers only kill the adults. You have to treat, then treat again. Most literature recommends monthly treatment for roundworm infestation due to its specific cycle....generally at least twice, often more if land is limited or litter is not easily changed.

After the second treatment, it is good to clean up or rotate your litter or range. For a limited range situation, putting pine shavings or another layer of amendment on top of the soil helps bury the eggs and protect against immediate transmission to lessen the cycle occurrence.

If you see worms, that bird is showing a heavy load, and there are most certainly worm eggs in your soil. Almost all chickens have worms and tolerate a certain level of worm load. Not all birds will have the same loads. It does tend to build up in certain hybrid/breed types and those birds with lower resistance.

Environment plays a big part too. In areas with heavy freezing and dry ground, worm transmission is limited and often those folk see little need for worming as healthy birds keep the load naturally in check. Those of us in moist soil (like my continually milder wet Oregon) and limited field rotation (like most backyard chicken owners) usually see the need to worm periodically at some point.

Herbals can help keep low levels in check. Herbals at best flush live worms from a chicken's system, however, that leaves both live worms and eggs in the soil to continue the infestation cycle (be it direct or through host). Without regular field rotation (with a chicken tractor like my son-in-law who is an organic farmer who rotates through about 5 acres), it is inevitable that susceptible ground within time will become heavier with worm load.

I use herbals between wormings to help keep worm loads down between seasonal worming....because I live in a milder, wetter climate with limited field rotation.

It is best to rotate your worm medicines between 2 or 3 types using A in the fall, B in the spring, then A (or C) in the fall again.

The FDA has made it very difficult to take care of chickens as all worm medicine has been moved off the approval list for chickens laying eggs for human consumption. That means if you treat, technically you are never to use that chicken again for egg sales. However, that is only the larger operations that must comply with FDA inspection.

Those of us with small holdings generally withhold eggs for 2 to 3 weeks. Why? Generally it is not really the safety of the egg as most worm medicine infiltrates the egg in very small quantities. Granted, there are those individuals who may be sensitive, but most of the worm medicine used for chickens is also used for people. The amount a person could get from the egg would not be enough to be a human dosage, even with accumulative effect.

Withholding is so that should your eggs be tested, no residue would be found as the substance is considered non-approved by the FDA (therefore "illegal" use). There are no egg police for small holders (those under 3,000 birds) as there are no small holder inspections nor market inspections (since most of us sell in the farm to consumer direct clauses...check your state).

If a small holder has need for their eggs to be tested (it will be because someone got sick and thought it was your eggs), and residue was found, the small holder is then liable for all FDA penalties.

I personally don't toss the eggs (if it is a wormer used for humans too...which I make a point to use). I keep eggs for family consumption only during worming season, tossing the first 3 days when the wormer med has reached its highest absorption point. (It varies with the wormer). I feel that is totally fine medically for my family. The FDA doesn't care what you do for your own family. It is only concerned with eggs for consumption by friends and customers.

I wait until at least 2 weeks after the last worming to sell eggs again. (Some of my customers don't care, and they know).

Generally I worm at the beginning of fall and at the middle of winter when egg production is lower. Summer also brings warmer drier weather so I don't have to worry so much then. (Be forewarned that fenbendazole has been implicated in funky feather regrowth if administered during molt).

I personally have curtailed sales as it has become a hassle with the FDA withdrawal of all approved wormers from the consumer market. I miss Hygromycin B which was easy to give and had no egg withdrawal. But alas, the FDA saw fit to withdraw that too.

You can read through withdrawal suggestions in the following FARAD literature. Mind you this came out before the new 2017 sanctions that essentially removed all worm meds from the poultry market, however, it is still beneficial for the small holder.

And continually check with the FDA/FARAD rules as they change regularly. There may be stuff back on the market in time again.

LofMc
https://vet.osu.edu/sites/vet.osu.edu/files/documents/extension/Egg residue considerations during the treatment of backyard poultry 2015.pdf

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Since you specifically asked about herbals, I can say what I've learned from my personal research, use, and conversations with my farmer SIL and daughter (who cannot use any worm meds in their system or they lose use of that bird forever as they are certified organic).

Cayenne, fresh garlic, and pumpkin seeds have shown a certain effectiveness in flushing the system from worms. (Remember strict field rotation or litter management is the follow up of this to be effective).

A healthy chicken means a healthy gut. Keeping a healthy gut helps your chickens naturally. To do that, make sure your birds get probiotics (yogurt or supplements) and maintain apple cider vinegar (raw with mother in plastic containers only as the acid leeches the zinc from metal types). The yogurt/probiotics help grow the healthy bacteria for a healthy gut. The ACV mother feeds the bacteria and acidifies the gut making it less hospitable as a host.

Wormwood has shown some effectiveness. I have used Molly's herbal wormer. My chickens don't seem to prefer the bitter taste of that herbal wormer due the wormwood, so its effectiveness is limited in that way. You can get Molly's here: http://www.fiascofarm.com/herbs/mollysherbals.php/categories/herbal-wormer

The best protocol for herbals is usually 3 days every 6 weeks....especially if you are using wormwood which can be toxic if given too frequently or for too long.

You can also place acidified copper sulfate in the water for several days (it must be acidified to be active). My SIL has seen improvement with that. It is not clear how the copper sulfate helps other than boosting the immune system and making the gut a less friendly place for worms. You can get acidified copper sulfate here: https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/acidified_copper_sulfate.html

For that, you place in water (plastic container only again) for several days. Use seasonally.

I've tried the Verm-X stuff, but didn't really see much improvement over what I can do with cayenne, fresh garlic, and pumpkin seeds, its main ingredients (hard to find on their website...you have to look). The Verm-X becomes exorbitantly expensive for any number of birds. A canister doesn't go far even with my smaller flock (15 to 18).

I make up a blender full of pumpkin seeds, garlic and cayenne. It should be crumbled in texture, smell like an Italian restaurant, and look rusty. I've added some yogurt to make a mash which the birds generally eat well. When I add the Molly's however (for the wormwood), they typically turn up their beaks, which is too bad as the wormwood has shown effectiveness in killing the worms too.

Just what I've done with herbals.
LofMc

 

[Lochloosachicks]

Thank you, very helpful! Rotating is not an option for us as there coop is permanent and they free range everywhere during the day. This means they will just keep gettting it? If it's safe than I can just plan the bi-annual working. This was not planned at all and I have hardly any eggs on hand. I would hate that have to BUY eggs for myself because of this.
The girl I know is infected I went ahead and treated with safeguard bc it's all I have. I hope that works being that I used it the last time. She is not an egg layer so that isn't an issue at the moment. She is a 9-10 month old buff Orpington that has never seemed very healthy. She has not developed her comb and waddle at all and has never layed an egg.
I'm considering building up my egg supply a little and then worming the entire flock. What are the brands you use that you feel are safe for human consumption?
I'm a little freaked out that they could get in the eggs! Is it onbvious and with extreme breakouts,I hope?

 

[Lochloosachicks]

Is it fresh garlic, cayenne powder?

Since you specifically asked about herbals, I can say what I've learned from my personal research, use, and conversations with my farmer SIL and daughter (who cannot use any worm meds in their system or they lose use of that bird forever as they are certified organic).

Cayenne, fresh garlic, and pumpkin seeds have shown a certain effectiveness in flushing the system from worms. (Remember strict field rotation or litter management is the follow up of this to be effective).

A healthy chicken means a healthy gut. Keeping a healthy gut helps your chickens naturally. To do that, make sure your birds get probiotics (yogurt or supplements) and maintain apple cider vinegar (raw with mother in plastic containers only as the acid leeches the zinc from metal types). The yogurt/probiotics help grow the healthy bacteria for a healthy gut. The ACV mother feeds the bacteria and acidifies the gut making it less hospitable as a host.

Wormwood has shown some effectiveness. I have used Molly's herbal wormer. My chickens don't seem to prefer the bitter taste of that herbal wormer due the wormwood, so its effectiveness is limited in that way. You can get Molly's here: http://www.fiascofarm.com/herbs/mollysherbals.php/categories/herbal-wormer

The best protocol for herbals is usually 3 days every 6 weeks....especially if you are using wormwood which can be toxic if given too frequently or for too long.

You can also place acidified copper sulfate in the water for several days (it must be acidified to be active). My SIL has seen improvement with that. It is not clear how the copper sulfate helps other than boosting the immune system and making the gut a less friendly place for worms. You can get acidified copper sulfate here: https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/acidified_copper_sulfate.html

For that, you place in water (plastic container only again) for several days. Use seasonally.

I've tried the Verm-X stuff, but didn't really see much improvement over what I can do with cayenne, fresh garlic, and pumpkin seeds, its main ingredients (hard to find on their website...you have to look). The Verm-X becomes exorbitantly expensive for any number of birds. A canister doesn't go far even with my smaller flock (15 to 18).

I make up a blender full of pumpkin seeds, garlic and cayenne. It should be crumbled in texture, smell like an Italian restaurant, and look rusty. I've added some yogurt to make a mash which the birds generally eat well. When I add the Molly's however (for the wormwood), they typically turn up their beaks, which is too bad as the wormwood has shown effectiveness in killing the worms too.

Just what I've done with herbals.
LofMc

 

[Lochloosachicks]

Is it fresh garlic, cayenne powder?

Also, how often? I would like to keep them on a regular schedule now that I know it's in the soil. Is this something they should have daily?

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Pumpkin seeds (crushed/crumbled in blender so they mix), fresh garlic (I purchase the Costco jar of crushed garlic, but you can add garlic cloves), and cayenne powder.

Looks crumbly, smells garlicky, looks rusty. (Sorry I don't have an exact formula! I am a "by sight" cook).

That will flush their systems. You can do that once every month, or weekly. It depends on your overload. I tend to do it monthly for a couple of days. (Then I forget). I can't keep on that 6 week schedule. It doesn't stick in my head well enough.

I am currently rotating Ivermectin (which is used in people...particularly children in African countries) and Wazine (piperazine, again used in people for pinworms). Please don't misunderstand that I am not concerned about drugs in food I eat, however, I also care about the health of my chickens...and as my organic SIL agreed, if you have limited field rotation, wetter climate, it is almost a guarantee you will need to resort to some meds at some point....I'm just trying to do so with as much knowledge and wisdom as I can....for MY family.

I plan to switch to Safeguard next year as its product (fenbendazole) is/was approved in the UK for small holders of layers without egg withholding (see FARAD article)....unless something comes on the market in the US by the time I'm there....I'm currenlty using up my products on hand.

So right now, I am rotating Ivermectin (which can be effective against internal worms and body mites if no resistance has been built up in your worm population per studies and my personal experience) and Wazine (which only addresses roundworms).

I then supplement with herbals (honestly, when I remember, can't guarantee that is on a "strict" schedule).

I've just finished 2 doses of Wazine (piperazine...I get a generic that I use).

Follow Wazine dosage on container. (You can buy that at the feed store).

I use the Ivermectin cattle pour on (5mg/ml concentration) placed as 1/4 ml per 5 pound bird, at the back of the neck at the skin and a couple a drops below the vent.

There are those on BYC who distrust Ivermectin as it has shown to have resistance in some populations, but it is working for me. Some feel the cattle pour on is manufactured for cattle only and not effective for birds, but it seems to work for me and others I know.

Two doses are fine for one med. You actually don't want to use too many different meds at once as you create an over exposure and build resistance to all your meds.

You want to use med A, full treatment (both doses, usually 2 doses, one then another in 10 to 21 days), then the next season use med B. Switch between the two for a year, then go to med C.

That way you don't create a resistant population of those stragglers left behind.

Just what I do.
LofMc

 

[Lady of McCamley]

...and to your Orp.

She is probably unthrifty because of the worms...and she has so many worms if she is a weaker bird.

Hard to know which came first...the chicken or the worms...but the first sign of worm overload is often poor egg production, pale combs, some lethargy, thin appearance (pick her up and feel her keel bone....it should be easily felt but not sticking out sharply).

Messy bum is another sign as worms also cause loose stool.

Whenever my birds look downtrodden, I worm and check for external parasites.

They noticeably brighten after worming...brighter combs, fluffier bodies, cleaner bums.

Note, while I did do some fecals at the beginning (my organic farmer daughter is also a Vet tech, and while she lived at home, she'd do free fecals), I am not doing them anymore. I simply go by the appearance of my birds now....knowing my conditions as observed earlier.

LofMc

 

[Lady of McCamley]

...oh and don't worry about the round worms in the eggs...that is possible but rare occurrence...it would indicate a horribly heavy load in the population.

And your safeguard is fine to use, and I'd repeat that hen when you worm the whole flock.

LofMc