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[galanie]

Quote:
Exactly. Without at least someone trying to, at the very least, maintain a breed, it will be lost. I still think all this fuss about "the mutt is now better than the show bird" is just a case of reverse snobbery.

 

[rancher hicks]

I have to laugh to the "reverse snobbery". You can't have the reverse of something unless there is snobbery coming from the other direction.

Now what I posted was not a "slam" against anyone. If it's taken that way I'm sorry but not surprised. However if the shoe fits, wear it, as they say.

I would like to note that most commented on the "laying", which just proves my point since many breeds are "dual purpose" breeds. Meat and Eggs.

I do disagree with Chris09 in that due to show birds these breeds have survived, but rather, IMO, many owe their survival to organizations such as the ALBC and organizations like them. Not to leave out the BYC web site.

As for "improving"? Many breeds are in the "restoration stage" due to neglect, of the Dual Purpose intent of the breeds, by whoever or for whatever reason.

Also keep in mind that the Practical Poultry magazine is a British magazine and showing is much more prevalent there, so the problem may be more prevalent there. I can't really say.

Certainly my posting was for newbies as well as those working with "heritage" breeds but if it doesn't apply to you, then ignore it.

Too, I have my concern, having been the victim of a so called expert breeder, only to end up with a rooster that couldn't get the job done most of the time and chicks that were hatched were not pure.

Finally I was not hurling accusations at anyone.

Such is life,

Rancher

 

[Narragansett]

Quote:
Exactly. Without at least someone trying to, at the very least, maintain a breed, it will be lost. I still think all this fuss about "the mutt is now better than the show bird" is just a case of reverse snobbery.

AMEN!
Like most other discrimination, that attitude is based on ignorance and lack of familiarity. This divide isn't unique to poultry. For any domestic animal species for which there is both an exhibition side and a production or pet side, the non-exhibitors usualy have a professed lack of interest and experience with the exhibition side, and hense quite a profound lack of sophisitication with regard to the reasons for and the application of the Standards.

 

[galanie]

Rancher Hicks, I percieved no slamming or disrespect but I love to argue stuff like this because of what I've read in the past, not specifically just what is stated here. This subject has been thrown around a lot and there is a bit of misinformation out there.

Personally, I think where the most common dual purpose breeds have veered from what they should be is on the meat side. It's just that most people bring up laying. I'm not sure what point was proved by laying being commented on the most. In fact, for my orpingtons that I love, it looks to me like only the show and breeder quality ones are even worth having for meat at all. I've yet to see one that is a show winner appear to not be meaty and large. For one to argue that breeding birds for show ruins their potential for a meal is just SO backwards from what I've observed, that I have a hard time believing anyone would even make that claim.

 

[Narragansett]

I would like to note that most commented on the "laying", which just proves my point since many breeds are "dual purpose" breeds. Meat and Eggs. Not true. The so-called dual purpose moniker is a recent phenomenon. It was simply an experiment that began around the turn of the last century, up until WWII, before the advent of commercial layers and broilers. The originators of these so-called dual purpose breeds hoped to create a bird in which the hens would lay fairly well, and the excess cockerels would be large enough to eat. This was OK when most small farms grew their own feed, and had lots of other left overs to suppliment, as well as large families who could share in the work, but they eventually realized that it was inefficient and impractical if any feed had to be purchased or employees paid to do the work, hense the development of the seperate commercial layers and broilers. Breeders learned that the body type which is conducive to laying is not conducive to growing meat, and vice versa. The same happened with cattle, so dairy and meat breeds split from each other as well. Most of the standards were developed during this time of rapid development of a lot of our current breeds. When the experiment failed, that left mainly exhibition breeders to carry on with the purebreds, and the true reason for the birds' lack of high production was misinterpreted by those not involved with exhibition.
I do disagree with Chris09 in that due to show birds these breeds have survived, but rather, IMO, many owe their survival to organizations such as the ALBC and organizations like them. Not to leave out the BYC web site. Also not true. The APA was around long before ALBC and the internet. APA show breeders have always been the ones to keep these breeds going, before there was such a thing as a "heritage" movement. Have you ever wondered why almost every breed in the Standard of Perfection is now considered a so-called heritage breed? I often joke that the APA has another name for heritage breeds. We call them breeds..

 

[Narragansett]

Quote:
RIGHT ON!

 

[Chris09]

Quote:

IMO, many owe their survival to organizations such as the ALBC and organizations like them

Is the ALBC breeding these breeds? NO! So how is the ALBC doing more for the breed that a good breeder?

I was a member of the ALBC and found that there are far more organizations, groups and clubs that are doing more for these breeds than ALBC could ever do.

Let take the R.I. Red, the ALBC lists it as recovering, its recovering?
For the past few years the Single Comb Rhode Island Red large fowl has been called a very rare breed of poultry and during the winter months you might be able to count 200 adult birds and during the summer months maybe there will be a thousand birds in the USA. That's very rare, now the Rose Comb Rhode Island Red may have only about 50 adult birds during the winter months. These numbers changed very little if at all over the past few years. So I ask you how is this recovering? (These numbers are of non-hatchery standard bred fowl)

You would think that the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy would try to know a little more about the breeds that they are trying to preserve.


Chris​

 

[Oregon Blues]

Easy enough if all you want is hen's eggs: buy commercial white leghorns. Their production is abnormally high, making normal egg production look low if other breeds are compared to the leghorn. Even if a breed still lays the same number of eggs it has laid for 100 years, it will still look like a slacker if compared to the leghorn.

If you look at the flip side, the hatchery birds tend to fall far short in the area of meat production (except for the meatie hybrids). I bought a box of hatchery ducks to butcher, and it turned out to be a huge waste of money. Their feed conversion was really poor and they ended up very small after costing a lot of money to feed.

I just butchered the last one at 8 months of age and got a carcass 2 ounces over 2 pounds. This in a breed that is supposed to weigh 8 pounds. My show bred ducks of the same breed had much better feed conversion and they are easily twice as big and they are 5 1/2 months old. I know that is not a unique experience.

So, I suspect that you are very unlikely to get good dual purpose birds from a hatchery. You can get a good dual purpose breed from a breeder, but you do have to inquire about their breeding program and what they consider to be important.

I know I am not the only breeder who considers temperament, egg laying, feed conversion, mothering ability and taste on the table. It has been discussed many times in other areas of BYC. This Sunday, I will be eating a goose hatched and raised by my Grand Champion Waterfowl goose. She did all the work herself, as she was expected to. Carcasses have been evaluated carefully. Flavor is part of that evaluation. Utility is an important component of breed type for that breed of goose and I pay close attention to it.

 

[CluckyJay]

I hope we keep both types of chicken keepers. The variety of lines you get when people breed for certain things keeps life spicy and interesting. I like the thought taking a SQ animal and crossing it back to something more productive and tweaking it over the years. Idle hands and all!

 

[colby318]

I have black and blue wandottes that I'm breeding to the SOP. As far as dual purpose, the wyandotte is more of a meat bird than a layer of large eggs (their pulllet year are medium at best). As much as I would like - the breed description doesn't allow them to have a large carcass and produce large eggs at the same time. It's a compromise....
I have complaints from people who expect them to have the same laying ability as their hatchery hybrids. Sigh