A question of ethics/conscience.

[Ryu]

I think if breeders breed to the standard that a lot of these problems go away. I put a little weight on the Judges here too. Birds that aren't to standard shouldn't be placed. Deformities can happen in any breed of chicken if the breeders take traits too far, or do not breed properly.

 

[jimnjay]

I have had some Silkies with medium crests as well as heavy crests that have problems seeing. They have all been able to find the food and water but the see so poorly that when treats are thrown they will stand and peck in a circle around the treat and never pick it up. At the same time the siblings of these same birds have no problems what so ever. I have concluded that some Silkies are visually imparied even with the crest trimmed down to almost noting. I currently have a fantastic little girl that was getting very thin as she matured and I found that she just could not see. She had a crest on the heavy side. I trimmed three times. As I watched her I found that she just had a hard time finding the food. I make sure I have a bowl in the same place everyday for her and I place her next to the food morning and night. she has water in the coop and outside in the same place. She is now a fat little piggy. She does lay but her eggs have yet to be fertile. I don't consider her good breeding material even though her type is perfect in my opinion. She is a prime example of a bird that for whatever reason has very bad eyesight and she should not be bred. If everyone would pay close attention to the individual birds in their flock these could be taken out of the gene pool and we could strengthen the overall breed.

My little girl will always have a good home here. Most evenings I have to put her away as she seems to avoid going up the ramp. I will eventually keep her in a small pen where she does not have to go up a ramp to find shelter.

In my situation I have room here to have those special pets that enrich my life even though they are not breeders.

As for the ethical question involving the crested breeds, my feelings are simple. Breed the best, that certaily would preclude birds that can't see. My little flock all have large yards to range in during the day. The graze on grass catch bugs dig in the dirt and do all the things any breed of chicken would naturally do. When one pops up that has a problem in this type of environment then they will be kept as pets or culled to a home where they can have the care they need.

Sarah, it sound like you have a girl that needs special care but that does not mean that all the birds full crested or otherwise are going to suffer the same defect.

In closing, I have to agree with the others that feel our Silkies should be bred to the standard with medium crests and thus avoid many of the problems we are seeing.

 

[aveca]

This is a sad situation for sure. I also beleive it is a personal choice.

I beleive the silki is an ancient breed , mentioned by marco-polo in his travels , seeing a bird with hair instead of feathers. Perhaps some breeders with the will can revive the breed for the breeds sake , by the time the show ring figures out the error it might be too late. Hope somone does.

I also have seen this in many dog breeds as well as horse breeds. Some good breeders say todays dog and horses are mostly man made today,One persons idea of what they want a horse or dog to be or look like, too much aggression in some dogs as well as a plethera of physiccal problem from eyes to hip problems.

One of my favorites was breeding horse with feet that were too small to support the weight of the massive bodys they prefered. A great injustice to a great american breed. This was what the good breeders called a FAD. luckily in this case a few breeders who saw the error stayed to themselves and bred for talant and temprement and good feet and, in the end they rose like cream to the top. Hopefully a few very dedicated people will do the same for the silki chicken..

I have to agree with you, the showring fad just feels wrong in this case an injustice to this breed. I dont blame you for wanting to get out of it.

My husband and I always discuss breeding stragity on the australorps, I tend to choose stricktly for the ring, He keeps me head out of the clouds and reminds me what made this breed important in the first place....eggs, high quality, not huge eggs , just great quality eggs and lots of them, they do NOT get the meat spots or blood spots in the eggs like some cross breeds that have the giant ripper eggs coming down the shoot. He reminded me how many things show people have ruined, so some of the birds I have eliminated for breeding he brought right back in and said these are mine, I asked why? she has this flaw and that flaw, he reminded me, she started eggs way befor the rest almost freakishly early.a hallmark of this breed and your a fool to overlook it as well as she is robust healthy bird with freindly all over her....good point and hes right, there needs to be a balance. So our birds are going in my three first until I collect enough then his three after that. So we can keep them seperate. We have 8 hens up here, It is november in NY and we have no lights on in the hen house, and today I picked up 8 eggs. I will remember the importance of that and Im glad he reminds me when I get a little too show happy

 

[greathorse]

Nice Post

 

[3KillerBs]

Quote:
Your husband strikes me as a wise man.

It seems only logical that breeds originally developed for production should be judged first of all on their production characteristics -- which is, unfortunately, possible only in the breeder's pens and not in the show cages.

 

[mandelyn]

I disagree with humans tampering with breeding to the point of making the animal dependant on the human. The only thing I'm alright with is non-setters, that doesn't inhibit their ability to eat/drink/move around.

Used to show dogs too, and I've learned that when the judges choose the extremes to win, the breeders breed for even more extreme. The judges need to judge against the standard as it is written, without screwing it around into personal opinion. "Fine Bone" does not mean so fine and thin the puppies can't even survive puppy play without broken legs. "Short Wrinkled Snout" doesn't mean so flat against the face it can't breathe.

Ethically, if a breeder produces an animal that needs specific care, that breeder is responcible for seeing to that animal's care. They are also responcible for placing that animal into a home where the required care will be given. It's neglectful and irresponcible to produce an animal requiring specific care, and then not seeing to that animal.

A chicken that can't see... you better be there to dip it's beak in water when the crest is grown in for "show". Cut it when not showing, and alter the breeding program to make a more natural bird that can fend for itself if you don't want to do the extra care. If you breed wrinkle faced dogs, get into those wrinkles with a q-tip every day to prevent skin problems. Or get out of wrinkle faced breeds. If you breed feather-footed birds but fail to keep them in a clean, dry area, forcing them to go around with crud and poo stuck on their legs... fix the run, bathe the feet, or switch to clean legged birds.

Every breed and species has it's own care requirements. If you can't meet those requirements, find a simple breed/species. Not only is it unethical, it's neglectful and completely irresponcible to not properly care for an animal you produced or purchased. Don't get so many that some fall through the cracks. If you're determined to have high maintance animals, don't have so many you can't see to them all.

When ever someone has several species, or two species not designed to be together... like dogs and chickens... it is that person's responcibility to treat the animals involved in a safe manner. To let a dog run with chickens without a human presense... well... we've all seen how many posts end badly. What was that dog doing out there anyways? To think that you don't have any predators in your area, and allowing your chickens to free range... the emergence of prey (the chickens) brings the predators you never knew you had. It's unethical to breed/own an animal that can't protect itself, and then fail to protect it. Crested birds that can't see up, should not be free range without a net over their head. Cats that have been declawed should not be outdoors. Female dogs in heat should not be allowed to escape or roam. Birds with clipped wings shouldn't be set out as sitting ducks for predators. Chicks shouldn't be brooded in a house with cats without a secure lid. (boy was I peeved when someone was surprised their sweet kitty was taking chicks!! duh!)

It's unethical to humanize animals. They simply don't think like we do, or share our same emotions. To think they "ought to know to get out of the rain", or "Not to eat the bedding"... "To run from the dog if they see it without you"... "To not get tangled in barb wire"... animals are not that hip to human ways, and humans have the responcibility to care for and protect them in the manner required for our chosen breeds and species.

 

[horsejody]

Quote:
I may be incorrect, but I believe that most birds have virtually no sense of smell and find food and water with their eyes.

 

[aveca]

Quote:
Your husband strikes me as a wise man.

It seems only logical that breeds originally developed for production should be judged first of all on their production characteristics -- which is, unfortunately, possible only in the breeder's pens and not in the show cages.

Thanks he is a thoughtful man with the birds best interest at heart. There should be a reward for the production breeders efforts, especially if they are producing quality eggs consistantly. They are the unsung heros of the poultry world, champions of the breakfast table, home-made pasta makers, cookie bakers ect.... When I am out getting ready to show with baths and all, he picks on the rooster over my sholder, saying Is she foo fooing you. Dont be putting nail polish on my boy.Otherwise I will start calling him fee fee.

He bought a dozen massive eggs from one of our freinds, it was a cross breed 2 year old hens, the eggs were impressive to say the least and he had a huge smile on his face when he got those, but every single one of those egg we cracked into a bowl to use for home-made pasta had big blood spots and meat spots, he would crack one say bluck, crack another say bluck, wound up letting his dog have a feast.so some work to do on that project. those eggs had to be some sort of record in size, he called them the rippers.

We finnaly seperated the rooster into his own pad so pasta next week

. My husband thinks that production birds should be judged with their egg examples right next to them, and it should be part of thier overall score . One of his birds did start laying a nice egg weeks befor the others . She to him IS the intention of the breed, and she is healthy happy bird, does her egg buzines early morning then off she goes on her way to full day of brousing.

But back to the subject. No one beleived marco polo on his tales of chickens with hair like feathers, he was right. Hopefully they will lean back toward the more robust carefree birds even if it means sacrifising a big crest. It will probably only happen if judges realize there is a problem and stop rewarding that charcteristic. and educate as to why.

 

[TurtleFeathers]

I think its a personal choice. But I also think that an animal deserves, at the very least, to be able to do what comes naturally to them without our interference on how we think they should LOOK affecting how they were meant to function. And I also think its a SHAME to MESS UP an entire breed of animal - ANY animal - and what they were originally bred for because we, as humans, think they should LOOK a certain way.

For example, I used to show setters - I did field trials and my husband hunted with my FIELD bred setters, and I did conformation shows with my SHOW bred setters. Our field dogs were the *originals*, and maintained all the traits they were bred for a century ago - loyal companions and intelligent athletes - they weren't much to look at, but they trained easily, would do anything I asked of them, and they would hunt their hearts out all day long without batting an eye. The show dogs, although I loved them and they were fun loving dogs, they couldn't hunt to save their life, and were a nightmare to train in obedience because they lacked focus - but God they were pretty dogs! (which fits in with my opinion that conformation shows are merely canine beauty pageants) Just an example of what man can do to an animal over generations of "selective breeding" - show setters simply have had their original purpose bred out of them over the years, in favor of what some perceive as "beauty" - and because of this, IMO, field setters and show setters should be two completely separate breeds.

Now, I'm fairly new to poultry, so my opinion may not mean much, but from what I've observed thus far, showing poultry has, over the generations, followed much of the same path as showing dogs. I realize they're both domestic animals, but I think about whether or not they could fend for themselves, avoid predators or find their way home were they to be turned lose or if they escaped. Or God forbid, what about a natural disaster? I dare say, my EE's would probably fare MUCH better than my Polish or my silkies, just as my field setters would over my show setters.

And I believe that our interference on how an animal LOOKS should not affect their health and well being. This page is just but one example on chickens: http://www.browneggblueegg.com/Article/HoleInHead.html. And here is a BYC thread on the subject: https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=191416&p=1

I don't have silkies with vaulted skulls or huge crests - actually my silkies have fairly small crests and would be considered pet quality my most. But they're happy, healthy, normally functioning chickens. My Polish, however, do have those big beautiful round crests that are favored in the show ring - they are stunning birds, but its really quite pitiful to see them walking into things and trying to find their way out of the hen house when I open it up in the morning, simply because they can't see the door. My silkies are at the top of the pecking order in my flock, and push many of my larger birds around - I truly love my Polish chickens, but honestly, they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, even if they had to. For that reason, they are kept separate from the larger more aggressive birds.

Now, I'm a dog groomer by trade, so making animals look pretty is my business. I've been doing it for almost two decades, but these days, I'm more about an animal's health and comfort than I am about its looks. Sure, I want my clients to look nice, but I want them to feel good and function properly too! I don't like to see show dogs with their long hair up in wraps any more than I like to see crested chickens all taped up with hair tape. I'd much rather just let dogs be dogs, and chickens be chickens - and this means letting them all live and play outside on the grass and in the dirt. So I cut hair, and I cut feathers.

But this is a chore that I would rather NOT have to do - it stresses the animal out and I'm taking a chance on injuring them just by trying to help them - but if that's what I have to do to help them, then so be it. Its the price I have to pay in order to keep them healthy and comfortable, and the price I have to pay for wanting to keep certain breeds. Will it stop me from breeding them? Probably not - but I only hatch a few chicks here and there for myself and my friends, and I don't show, so current fads, breed standards, and judges opinions mean nothing to me. WHEN I DO breed, its for health and temperament first, egg laying/reproductive ability and resemblance of breed second - and if they grow up to be absolutely gorgeous birds to boot, then that's just a bonus! But keep in mind, beauty, after all, is in the eye of the beholder.

Just my two cents...

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
It's because they're so darned fluffy. It is frequently necessary to trim them or even AI in order to get good fertility.