Aaaargh! Dog breeders!

[redhen]

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Agree 100%

 

[Senna95]

Okay, I know I'm going to be walking on thin ice here, and that I'll probalby offend some folks, but I'm going to express my thoughts anyway:

First of all, I think that the breeders ARE being selfish by not selling puppies "unless you show them". The breeds we're talking about are hundreds, if not thousands, of years old. It's not just the breeders of the last 20 years that have made these dogs into what they are today. If they really care about the breed, then they would be happy to see others breed quality animals, and would be happy to sell to those of us that intend to breed responsibly even though we don't want to show for conformation.

An excelent example is Dave Holderread of Holderread Waterfowl farm. A dedicated breeder who raises and sells ducks and geese, and concentrates on rare breeds and show quality stock. He sells them to anyone that wants to purchase them, and encourages people to breed and distibute the birds as they please. A quote from his book, Storey's Guide to Raising Ducks:

"As we head into the twenty-first century, preserving the widest possible gene pool in all types of plants and animans is essential. Around the world, geneticists, trained plant and animal breeders, and - just as important - thousands of lay people are dedicated guardians of endangered genetic stocks of all kinds."....... "One of the most important contributions you can make is to raise one or more of the rare breeds. By purchasing endangered breeds you make three important contributions: You support the farms that breed them, you increase the population of the breeds, and you augment the nummber of locations where the brees are kept, thus reducing the possibility that they could be wiped out by plague, marauding predators, or natural disaters."

Granted, not all of the dog breed we've mentioned are endangered, but if we keep up with the "no intact puppies unless you show" we will soon be there.

Secondly, I grew up with Belgians in my native Holland. Our dogs were from working stock: They had police dogs, drug dogs, guard dogs, and guide dogs for the blind in their "pedigree". We loved our dogs for both their beauty and their personality. I attempted to purchase one (A Groenendael female) from a breeder a few years back, and the dog they tried to sell me was extremely timmid, undersized, and over-priced. I declined because that wasn't what I wanted in my dogs. I am in a position now to try again. I have over 6 acres of property, and I can give the dogs a wonderful home, and I'm knowlegeable about dog care and breeding, but I can't purchase because I won't show for conformation. People: this is not the only reason to breed dogs! Yes, it should be a very significant concideration, but there are SO MANY other things that make a good dog!

I don't see the need to import dogs from overseas.... there ARE good dogs here in the states.

As I mentioned earlier: by refusing to sell quality dogs to others, and by jacking up the price to exhorbitant amounts we are only encouraging the puppy mills to produce more puppies. "Designer Breeds" are a huge business. Shouldn't the breeders be more concerned that their breeds are being mixed, manipulated, and overbred, rather then having a responsible breeder raise a few puppies in order to promote the breed?

 

[SilkieAddicts]

A great deal of time and effort goes into raising dogs worthy of being bred. For a herding dog, a title at both ends would be ideal. If your dog is not structurally sound enough to acquire a championship then it certainly should not be bred. You cannot blame someone for protecting their lines. Look for another breeder if you don't like the stipulations of the one.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
1) -- It's been much, much longer than just 20 years... the dog fancy and the modern way of breeding and keeping stud books started in Europe and the Middle East a few hundred years ago.... and The Kennel Club was founded in 1873.

2) -- you are upset. I don't exactly blame you, but I also think you're a bit uneducated about how breeders "do their thing". I'm not saying its right or wrong but it is common practice in a quality dog kennel. It's better that you get used to the rules they set forth, instead of fighting against them. Secondly on this point if I were you I would import dogs from Holland or other countries. You're bound to get something as good -- if not much better -- than the dogs here in the US and you will not have to spay or neuter and will have a better selection of genetics to choose from.

 

[watchdogps]

Senna, I do agree with you actually I think. I don't think a CH should be required, but I do think that a dog should be capable of earning one if it were shown. However, some people do not have the interest or the finances to show a dog in conformation. Speaking for myself, I don't require that of my buyers, but I do keep a co own on girls until I can evaluate them and make sure they have turned out to be structurally correct. If she is, and she exhibits correct breed traits behaviorally as well, that is acceptable.
There are also cases where a dog can't be shown but still has things to bring to the table. The sire of my last litter had his hock broken severely when young and he has a bad gait because of it. You can tell its due to that, and everything else is great, so I used him. He wasn't my dog, so it wasn't a case of using what I had either. I sought. Him out.
I do think you can find what you want, I just think it will take some patience. It doesn't sound like you are dead set on breeding just because, it sounds like if you got a dog who wasn't breeding quality in some way you'd be responsible about it. You just n just need to find that breeder who takes the time to get to know you.
Also, cut us breeders some slack. Most of us spend countless hours planning and calculating and trying to do everything we can to make the best puppies. We show and groom and train and spend lots of money. W e stay up endless night delivering and saving and nursing puppies. We spend weeks caring for themand socializing them and loving them. Then we have to trust others to care for them and hope they live up to their promises and the dog is loved and given the care and respect t deserves. Unfortunately no matter how well we screen, something can slip by, and there is nothing more heartbreaking. So pleade know thatthat distrust is often born from being burned by buyers who haven't lived up to their end of the bargain. Not just by breeding a dog they said they wouldn't but horrifying things like seeing our puppies half starved. And beaten and worse. Bybs don't get that because they don't keep tabs on their pups.

 

[zzGypsy]

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There is a difference between working varieties of a breed and showing varieties of a breed.

But I do agree that any dog used for breeding should be a CHAMPION, whether in the conformation show ring or a herding show ring. Pet quality or animals that go to be pets should be sterilized. There is already too much of a pet overpopulation..

there can be a big difference between the dog that does well in the herding trials, and the dog that does well in working ranch tasks. if what I want is a dog to do well in herding trials, then that's fine, but what I need is a dog that does well in ranch tasks. and if I want to breed that dog to another working herding dog, and sell the puppies to my neighbor to do tasks on his ranch, there's no reason I should have to have a championship in *any* show ring, herding or conformation.

for a working herding dog, conformation matters insofar as it affects performance and durability of the dog... otherwise I don't care much about it. bad leg conformation I care about because of wear on the dog's joints... but if the dog can work, I don't really care if it meets breed standards.

among border collie owners there's long been a contest between those that breed for show in conformation, those that breed for competitive trials, and those that breed for work. sadly a lot of "well bred" border collies end up at the pound because they don't have the drive for actual herding work, and are too intense to make good pets... these "well bred" dogs meet the breed standard and are doomed nonetheless.

you get what you reward... in competition, what gets rewarded (good looks, or competitive trial herding) doesn't always translate to the work we need the dogs to do. and when you reward good looks without regard for talent, drive, mental and physical stamina, it's not surprising that you end up with good looking dogs who can't work.

I've got 3 herding dogs, Cash is a border collie pup from cattle-working parents with no papers who definitely won't meet breed standard, but is showing excellent working instincts and great trainability. Ari's a total ferari of a competitive trial dog, registered border collie from good trial lines that may or may not turn out to be an ideal working dog. Ree is a rescue aussie/queensland who shows good instincts and we are just starting to train, but I think has the ability to be an outstanding ranch dog. Ree came to us fixed but the other two are not... we won't be breeding casually, but there's no reason to decide yet that the other two are or are not breeders, papers or no. the working dogs, if they've got the goods, should be propagated... it's what the dog was designed for.

everyone on my ranch has a job to do, and I don't really care what their papers are if they can do the job they're here for. sooner or later, all of those critters will need to be replaced, no reason I should short myself out of next generations just because I don't have an interest in the show ring.

 

[wolftracks]

Senna I want you to know that nothing I posted was done to make you feel like you don't deserve to own and raise the dogs you want. I think you have every right. What I was trying to explain was how a lot of us as breeders, think of our animals as family members and wouldn't have a baby and just hand it over without knowing what it's life was going to be. Price? If 30 years ago I spent 25k on the top GSD (my first breed on my own) in Germany and Europe (should see the prices now) and continue to have him handled and shown there for a year before I even met him, then bring him home to do the exact same things here, there's no way I'm selling a puppy for 200 bucks. And let me tell you, that dog was really a human in GSD clothing. He picked the buyers. If he'd sit by you and let you hug on him, you passed. If he came over and put his head on my lap and sighed and gave me those beautiful eyes as if to say "I don't like them mom" you didn't pass. He was amazing, always by my side or guarding my then 2 little girls or even other members of my family when they were around. Not eveyone who has the money is worthy. I did however give pups to kids in Junior Showmanship. It's how I started and I was always looking for the right kid, or the kid that had a heart and was gonna be awesome, but couldn't afford a dog to do what they wanted to do. Or a kid who got into trouble but you could see that the dogs helped them to find something that helped them change. I would GIVE a pup away, before I'd sell it to someone I didn't think was going to be the best place for my babies. I just hope you understand where most of us are coming from. I'm sure you would be an awesome owner. As a breeder, I have no idea, because we haven't sat down and talked about it.

OK in the state of California, at least the the areas I know of, you can not wait to alter a puppy until it's 6 months old. It has to be done by 12 weeks. Thats another debate, but I think 12 weeks is rediculous. Some dogs don't show potential until they are 1 or 2 years old. My opinion, but like I said, it's another argument and I haven't posted to do that, just to give you the breeder side.

If you are going to be breeding for working dogs, I think you need to look more towards those who are doing the same thing. AKC is NOT the only registry out there. They are the oldest her, yes. But it doesn't make them better than another. I've seen several slammed, because as I mentioned before, people think they are getting so much more when a dog is AKC registered, because they don't know any better and only go by heresay. There have been many registries in this country that have been attacked and bad mouthed to the point that it must be gospel, because it's in the papers and on the net and so and so said so. Many have been bad mouthed about things that AKC has started doing themselves, so it's a power thing.

AKC started out as a registry for field trials. People wanted to register there dogs, the money was there, so they grew. So never think you can't go with another. Look into them, read their sites, ask for literature, but learn about them and do it with an open mind.

Go to trials! Not only are they fun and exciting, you can learn sooooo much! You can also talk to people. If they don't give you the time of day, go talk to somene else. There are lots of canine activities and places to go to meet breeders. OR....Maybe they aren't the breeder, but can help you contact theirs. Also look for Rare Breed shows. Those are usually far from AKC shows and most of the breeds aren't even AKC elegible. In my opinion (yet again) it means they haven't been torn apart and put back together so they fit the breed club standard that AKC will finally accept. You should be able to meet and make friends with lots of people. If we show dogs, more often then not, we are gonna talk dogs. Then again you do get the snobs, but really not as many as most people think.

Do not just walk up and ask if they have something you can buy and breed. Ask them about their breed. If you've owned before, still ask and if you have information yourself, share it. But if you just approach someone and say you want to get into breeding a working dog, they think you see money signs. They may not be willing to continue to talk to you. Ask how they started with the breed and how long after they got into breeding. Just be friendly and if you truely want to get that particular breed, you WILL find what you're looking for.

Once you start breeding though, please remember that the dogs you produce ARE your responsibility. They are living creatures that were bred to be human companions and workers and they deserve to be placed with people who feel the same way. And remember, it's expensive as H to raise a litter to even 8 weeks before sending them to their new homes. Man could I get into that, but won't. Just trust me. But, just feeding, worming and shots and anything that could go wrong? You get the picture. I could add all the tests and certification of the breeding dogs, but this is after all a chicken forum. LOL

Always have a buyers list waiting before you breed. This is like the number one have to do thing. If you have a breed that usually has 10 pups per litter, line up 30 prospective buyers. This is something a lot of people never do and then end up with a backyard full of half grown pups that go to a rescue or shelter. Again. Expensive! Collect deposits, collect the rest when it's time for the pup to be placed and be clear the money needs to be in time on time and at what age you are placing. Here it has to be 8 weeks. I have always done 8 - 12.

Also want to mention that you can also join a group even if you do not yet own a dog of that breed, or own one that will do the job the group is for. Just get envolved a little and you'll meet who you need to meet. You don't have to show, just get yourself out there and someone may even offer you one.

I sincerly hope you get to fullfill your goal. I hope you have the best stock out there and people beat your door down, because you have become the person to go to, because they know you are doing it right. Keep your options open and remember that there are people who are willing to work with you. Oh and I want to see lots of pics once you get what you want. Some video working them would be nice to! hehe


I have one more thing to say, but have to be very very careful.

For all of you using the P word on here. Don't. Go read the rules of the board. I kind of missed that section and I have 20 pts against me here because I thought I'd share something I found about said P word online. ummmm I've never gotten into trouble on here till then and I'd hate for any of you to be reprimanded, so please be careful and go read the P word rules. I'm to chicken to even say I agree with you at this point, but I have to look after my family of BYCers here. But I do have my opinion of them also, but I like it here and I'm not about to get into any trouble because of them. Just thought I'd let you all know.

Senna, if you don't care about an AKC registration, pm me and I'll ask around to see who has what in what registry. Maybe someone I know, knows someone.

OH and I do import and there's nothing wrong with that. Can't do it anymore, but if I could I would. Maybe someday again. Maybe.

I lied. I have something else to say. Border Collies. I have never watched them in the ring at an AKC show. A truely amazing breed, that I have loved to watch work for decades now. I have family that work cattle and horse and always have these dogs. Most I have watched were at trials or even exibitions at shows including AKC before they were ever eligible. I actually wish they hadn't added them. They were better off in the hands of the breeders who worked them decades ago. Again, someone wanted pretty without the work. Sad.

 

[Evelle]

i had to sign a written agreement to neuter my dog (white boxer) because of the health problems they can carry.. but all dogs have health problems..
i agree it should be our decision to fix the dog once they sell it.. it is no longer thiers!!!

 

[QuailHollow]

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I raise English Pointers, and I do show and I am active with my dogs in Hunt Tests and Field Trials. I have finished Championships on my dogs. I have hunting titles. I am a member of the national breed club and my local breed club. I also health test my dogs. Despite that, I gotta say - I am with you on this. I sell my pups for about $600.00 to $750.00 each. Which I find to be reasonable. I don't drill people on how to care for them, or insult them by insinuating that their knowledge just isn't 'enough'. If they are truly interested in a breeding dog (which almost NOBODY is), I would very happily work with them on that.

Truth is, a lot of these breeders pretend that they have some deep hidden unknown universal knowledge on how to match pedigrees and breed dogs. PFFFTTT. Yeah right. I actually attended an AKC Breeders Symposium seminar where a geneticist stood up there and basically said that a genetic influence on a litter further back than 2 generations would be so slight you would never really notice it. And that is true. You always start with the two dogs you HAVE - the sire and dam... as mother nature does not look at pedigrees or ask if your b!tch has a championship. She wants to know if the dog can breed naturally, can she whelp a litter, can she care for them? The artificial selection we perform to create a dog is only an educated guess either way you go. If you are breeding champion dogs together, hunting dogs together, or family pets. You can never outsmart mother-nature. She will always have your number.

I am convinced that breeders of show strain dogs are trying to create sub-breeds by inbreeding them so heavily. They are all chasing after that hypothetical perfect 'typey dog' that they inbreed to produce, and then inbreed some more to perpetuate it. That, after all, is how we have our different breeds to begin with.

I honestly hate when people say - "that isn't a 'well bred' dog". I hate that term. *Well Bred*. What a joke. What the he11 does that mean, anyway? Nothing - because it's a paradox. A 'well bred' dog that has a full pedigree of champions - and can only eat a raw diet because of skin allergies - and has to be artificially inseminated and c-sectioned because she cannot whelp a litter --- is not --- more valuable than the dog down the street that's had 3 litters all natural and eats old roy. It's absurd to think that there is more value to the champion dog only because she has a 'pretty head'.

 

[QuailHollow]

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LOL - yeah. Because they are NORMAL.