All flock vs layer feed??

[U_Stormcrow]

Yes, it will definitely work for that.

Flax is a "superfood buzzword" mostly. But not entirely. As a seed, its a nutritionally dense source. Considerably better than the often included Sunflower seed in terms of crude protein, roughly on par with hemp and sesame. Slightly higher fiber than sesame, still lower than hemp or sunflower. Very close in fat levels to hemp, less than sesame or sunflower.

Usually not much included (except as a buzzword on the bag) because its expensive, but it does have a good AA profile overall, providing more Met, Lys, Thre, and Tryp than an equal weight of unshelled BOSS (and likely sheleed BOSS, too). Also, a good source of Omega-3s, some of which will make it to the egg. Sadly, its tiny - and loww volume to surface area means its fats go rancid faster than larger seeds.

But like I said, its expensive, so typically included (if at all) in very small amounts, where it makes little difference. What can I say, no perfect answers, just trade offs.

Anyhow, hope that helps!

 

[Ted Brown]

@U_Stormcrow thank you!

Here it is $90/25 kg bag for ground seeds (easier to benefit from nutritional contents I was told) that are "stabilized" (prevents it from going rancid I was told). Normally sold for horses but fed in small quantities (~tbsp/day I think) so a bag would go for a long time.

How would one feed it to chickens and in what quantity? Mixing with food seems hit&miss given the small quantities.

I note your post above said "good AA profile overall, providing more Met, Lys, Thre, and Try" and Omega 3s. @Brooks_ above asked "Did it list numbers for lysine or methionine?", you mention both I believe.

Your note implies little benefit using the small quantities normally used. What quantity would provide a benefit?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

It all comes down to averages. Let's say you have a "typical" starter/grower feed at 18% crude protein, with Met at 0.3% and Lys at 0.7%, and we'll pretend further you are picking it up at $50/25kg, or $2/kg. Your ground flax is $3.6/kg.

Lets imagine that you desire to bring your met levels up to 0.4 and your Lys to 0.8 if you can, because you aren't happy with your hatchlings' growth. In order to turn your 18-/0.3-/0.7 grower into something/0.4-/0.8 you would have to mix your feed 1:1 with the flax seed. You'd end up at about 20.5% crude protein (close enough), 0.39% Met (close enough), and 0.84% Lysine (high is fine). You've now raised your feed price from $2/kg to $2.8/kg, a 40% increase, while raising the fat content of the feed to something close to 20% (dangerous levels). I don't think anyone would look at that and think it makes sense to do that.

Additionally, you have to consider that Flax contains a B-6 antagonist, and similar to oats, has water soluable fibers which form muscilage which slows digestion, coats the intestines, and blocks nutrient intake. It also has to be processed correctly, or it can make cyanide compounds (we'll assume the feed store gets properly processed seed - heat treatment prevents it, it doesn't require anything fancy)

So, since the top example is right out, lets pretend you instead treat linseed like a "treat" and add 1 part linseed to 10 parts feed (using same numbers as above). Your new feed is about 18.5% protein, around 6% fat (fine), 0.32% Met, 0.72% Lys (no, those aren't much improvement, and you'd have to raise and measure a lot of birds before you could show a difference). Your feed costs are jow $2,15/kg, about a 7% increase, and that 25kg of linseed will last you 250kg of feed - depending on flock size, even with stabilizers - you could be looking at rancid linseed before its used up.

and that, in a nutshell, is why I don't recommend people try to reformulate commercial feeds by adding ingredients at home. Even with "good" ingredients, its hard to do well, because there are no perfect ingredients. Far easier and often cheaper to simply find a better feed (for most of us).

Linseed's relatively high fat content, B6 blocker, and mucous-forming carbs (can be addressed by enzymes) work best when the feed was designed around inclusion of a significant quantity (up to 10%) of them, by then selecting other very low fat ingredient for inclusion where possible, and including ingredients high in B6 and/or ingredients which might naturally provide the needed enzymes to speed breakdown of the mucilage (buckwheat, I think, might have it, I know a number of bacteria or yeast extracts will do it).

 

[MarkRainbolt]

I have always fed my chickens Purina medicated chick starter and cracked corn mixed half and half for over 20 years. They also have oyster shell at all times. I have never had a problem with my chickens.
Mark

 

[Ted Brown]

@U_Stormcrow Suffice to say I will buy the Purina Start and Grow and continue with a side of oyster shell.

A very good treatise above, details beyond what I know and understand but your net-net was simple and to the point. Very much appreciated!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

@U_Stormcrow Suffice to say I will buy the Purina Start and Grow and continue with a side of oyster shell.

A very good treatise above, details beyond what I know and understand but your net-net was simple and to the point. Very much appreciated!

that's what BYC is here for. Happy to spend part of the evening with you, talking it through. Have a great weekend!

 

[Ponypoor]

The label for the Purina Gold'n feed says 1% calcium. It is manufactured in Canada, perhaps a different mix?

Natj and u_stormcrow also said All Flock. I will visit my local feed store and do some label reading. I like the 20% protein, better during the winter.

I appreciate the heads up!

Yes Purina Gold'n is a Canadian Purina product line. I tried the Gold'n Grower Crumble and it was dust, and very expensive.

I went to Peavey Mart yesterday to scope out some other brands and found Hi-Pro 21% Chick Starter with 1% calcium, I too have a mixed flock with a Roo I want to keep healthy, I have older hens not laying, those molting, those growing.... And with not being able to find an All Flock anywhere I have decided to just go with the Hi-Pro 21% Chick Starter (non medicated of course), from Peavey Mart.

I wonder if "Gold'n" might be a name for a whole line of foods, instead of just one specific product. Does the label also say something about starter, or grower, or all-purpose, or something of the sort?

1% calcium is a good amount for a mixed flock.


All Flock is nutritionally about the same as chick starter, just another label for almost the same product.

There seem to be more and more "different" kinds of chicken food recently, but most of them can still be sorted into two basic groups: layer feed (high calcium) and everything else (low calcium, and usually with more protein than the layer feeds have.)

Reading the protein & calcium percentages can be more informative than reading the big letters on the front of the bag

That is what I have been finding - we cannot get an 'All Flock' here in Ontario, Canada at all, but I noted that the Starter feeds were essentially the same thing. I am going to try the Hi-Pro and see if the crumble isn't too dusty. It's 21% protein, and 1% Calcium, so should be ok for the Roo and the non layers.

My gang is rooting around in the hay, and horse poop so they get other goodies also (yummy!).

 

[U_Stormcrow]

That is what I have been finding - we cannot get an 'All Flock' here in Ontario, Canada at all, but I noted that the Starter feeds were essentially the same thing. I am going to try the Hi-Pro and see if the crumble isn't too dusty. It's 21% protein, and 1% Calcium, so should be ok for the Roo and the non layers.

My gang is rooting around in the hay, and horse poop so they get other goodies also (yummy!).

"All Flock" is a marketing term primarily, its the guaranteed nutritional label that matters. and yes, during the pandemic, many found that (for many brands) their "All Flock" or "Flock Raiser" "Starter" are all substantially similar enough to be essentially interchangeable. So people were using Starter as All Flock, and All Flock as Starter depending on what was on the shelf. In theory, "All Flock" has extra Niacin (for ducks - and because it won't hurt the chickens any), but because Niacin usually doesn't appear on the guaranteed nutrition label, there's no way to be certain.

Years ago, one of the posters here on BYC contacted Purina and Nutrena on that subject, and they confirmed increased niacin levels over chicken minimum recommends, but I don't know that anyone has checked with them lately. Those of us raising Pekins frequently provide an extra niacin boost, since their fast growth rates and large potential size have them at the high end of duck niacin needs, above that of adult duck maintenance levels.

 

[Ted Brown]

I bought my second 2 bags of the Purina non medicated Start & Grow this morning. Comes in a white bag, no brand or other marking on it but sewn in label gives details incl. brand and nutrients.

It is $24.15 for 25kg, about a dollar mere than I have been spending.

 

[Ponypoor]

I bought my second 2 bags of the Purina non medicated Start & Grow this morning. Comes in a white bag, no brand or other marking on it but sewn in label gives details incl. brand and nutrients.

It is $24.15 for 25kg, about a dollar mere than I have been spending.

Is this a pellet or crumble?