Ameraucana leg color or ear lobe color to determine egg shell color?

[WalkingOnSunshine]

Another thing that complicates this is that there is not one brown gene. Last I heard there were 13 different genes recognized that affect the shade of brown when they are present and who knows how many unrecognized ones. Then you have all the dominant-recessive, co-dominant, partially dominant and all that so how one gene acts can depend not only on dominant recessive but on what else is there. One of those 13 recognized is sex linked.

I agree with you though, egg shell color genetics are simpler and more straightforward than feather genetics. There are so many melanizers, diluters, and other modifiers that every time I learn something on feather color or pattern someone comes up with an exception.

By the way, there is no genetic link to earlobe color and egg shell color. With most purebreds bred in accordance with the SOP, the red earlobes = brown eggs and white earlobes = white eggs I generally true. That’s probably where that came from. But Penedesenca have white earlobes and lay dark brown eggs and Phoenix have red earlobes and lay white or tinted eggs. There are other examples where that “rule” doesn’t hold with purebreds. When you get to crossbreds that rule certainly doesn’t hold. I have mutt hens with white earlobes that lay brown eggs, sometime fairly dark brown.

Similarly there is no link from leg color to egg shell color. I once had a yellow legged hen that laid a pretty mint-green egg.

There is a possible genetic link though that you can use. It’s not 100% but it’s pretty good. The blue egg gene and the pea comb gene are real close together on the DNA. They are so close together that one of the experts on here that I really trust said there is a 97% chance that if the pea comb gene is given to an offspring, the blue egg gene will also. For this 97% to mean anything the chicken needs to be split for both the pea comb gene and the blue egg gene and the other chicken can’t have either the pea comb or blue egg gene. Also the two genes need to be linked to start with. Otherwise the odds get all messed up.

Where this comes in handy is with the rooster. You can tell if the hen has the blue egg gene by looking at her eggs. Roosters don’t lay eggs. If you have what is supposed to be an EE rooster and he has a pea comb, the odds are pretty good he has a copy of the blue egg gene unless one of his parents that lays brown or white eggs (or has the genetics for brown or white eggs) also has a pea comb.

It gets even better. The pea comb gene is one of those partially dominant genes. If the chicken is pure for the pea comb gene, both copies at that gene pair on the DNA are pea cob, the chicken will have a pea comb. But if the chickens is split for the pea comb (has only one copy) you will get a wonky pea comb. You’ll still see the effects of the pea comb gene but it won’t look right. Probably some extra growth to make it a little higher. So if you have a chicken with a pure pea comb, it probably has two copies of the blue egg gene too. That’s good to know when you are selecting your breeders.

This being chicken genetics there has to be a complicating factor. If you have the rose comb gene in the mix, that will also affect what the comb looks like. Rose + pea gives you walnut. Plus there are modifiers that can give you a wonky looking comb anyway, such as the modifier for a buttercup comb. It’s not always as straight forward as I made it sound a couple of paragraphs up, but the 97% rule can be a powerful tool in helping you select your breeders.

This is all true, and good information. When I said a "brown coating gene" it was a vast oversimplification. It reminds me of when I was in grad school, and the prof told us: "Everything you've learned about this subject to this date has been a lie. Useful lies, as they allowed you to learn about the subject bit by bit and not get overwhelmed--but lies nonetheless because while it was mostly true, it wasn't the whole truth. In this course, I will teach you a more-complex and closer to the truth lie. Once you finish your PhD, you'll know that the real truth is that we're still not entirely sure exactly what's going on here, although we have some very good guesses. Maybe your original research will help us refine the lie we tell ourselves even further."

I heartily agree that you can get a really good idea of which of your EE roosters carry at least one copy of the blue egg gene by looking at the combs. My EE cockerels often end up with funky modified pea combs that are bumpy like pea combs and flop like straight combs since I tend to make Leghorn X Ameraucana crosses. And those Ameraucana x Leghorn cross hens lay blue eggs but have yellow legs. I supposed I never paid attention to earlobe color!

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Hey, no insult intended. I used that link because I figured so many people of so many educational levels would see it and might be interested. Want me to pull out some of my molecular genetics stuff for you?

Actually, the Mendelian stuff they teach in middle school is really all you need for basic egg color stuff, so I didn't want to muddy the waters. Without going into detail, all that happens at higher levels in Mendelian genetics is the Punnett Squares start getting bigger and more complex, and you have to account for genes that are codominant--that is, they both express at the same time rather than one expressing itself and one not. It's the difference between the straight dominance behavior of the blue eyes/Brown eyes coloration in humans vs. the codominant stuff that happens when people have gray eyes or green eyes, which take more genes to achieve.

(Actually, I ought to pull out all my old molecular genetics stuff, so *I* can remember it. I just got my 20 year college reunion stuff in the mail yesterday. NO WONDER I've been having trouble wrapping my brain around the feather-color genetics. I haven't done any genetics work in something like 16 years!)

Oh no insult taken!....I was happy I had MADE it to middle school genetics or at least appeared to have!

And I totally agree with you...if you want a quick read on a subject for the basics, grab a good middle school book (and sometimes even upper elementary)...I do that all the time for my high school debate class that I teach.

However, my biology is long ago in mists of time..and unused really until I got chickens...so excuse me while I cough through the dust and brush up on some very rusty ideas. You've been a great help.

Lady of McCamley

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Another thing that complicates this is that there is not one brown gene. Last I heard there were 13 different genes recognized that affect the shade of brown when they are present and who knows how many unrecognized ones. Then you have all the dominant-recessive, co-dominant, partially dominant and all that so how one gene acts can depend not only on dominant recessive but on what else is there. One of those 13 recognized is sex linked.

I agree with you though, egg shell color genetics are simpler and more straightforward than feather genetics. There are so many melanizers, diluters, and other modifiers that every time I learn something on feather color or pattern someone comes up with an exception.

By the way, there is no genetic link to earlobe color and egg shell color. With most purebreds bred in accordance with the SOP, the red earlobes = brown eggs and white earlobes = white eggs I generally true. That’s probably where that came from. But Penedesenca have white earlobes and lay dark brown eggs and Phoenix have red earlobes and lay white or tinted eggs. There are other examples where that “rule” doesn’t hold with purebreds. When you get to crossbreds that rule certainly doesn’t hold. I have mutt hens with white earlobes that lay brown eggs, sometime fairly dark brown.

Similarly there is no link from leg color to egg shell color. I once had a yellow legged hen that laid a pretty mint-green egg.

There is a possible genetic link though that you can use. It’s not 100% but it’s pretty good. The blue egg gene and the pea comb gene are real close together on the DNA. They are so close together that one of the experts on here that I really trust said there is a 97% chance that if the pea comb gene is given to an offspring, the blue egg gene will also. For this 97% to mean anything the chicken needs to be split for both the pea comb gene and the blue egg gene and the other chicken can’t have either the pea comb or blue egg gene. Also the two genes need to be linked to start with. Otherwise the odds get all messed up.

Where this comes in handy is with the rooster. You can tell if the hen has the blue egg gene by looking at her eggs. Roosters don’t lay eggs. If you have what is supposed to be an EE rooster and he has a pea comb, the odds are pretty good he has a copy of the blue egg gene unless one of his parents that lays brown or white eggs (or has the genetics for brown or white eggs) also has a pea comb.

It gets even better. The pea comb gene is one of those partially dominant genes. If the chicken is pure for the pea comb gene, both copies at that gene pair on the DNA are pea cob, the chicken will have a pea comb. But if the chickens is split for the pea comb (has only one copy) you will get a wonky pea comb. You’ll still see the effects of the pea comb gene but it won’t look right. Probably some extra growth to make it a little higher. So if you have a chicken with a pure pea comb, it probably has two copies of the blue egg gene too. That’s good to know when you are selecting your breeders.

This being chicken genetics there has to be a complicating factor. If you have the rose comb gene in the mix, that will also affect what the comb looks like. Rose + pea gives you walnut. Plus there are modifiers that can give you a wonky looking comb anyway, such as the modifier for a buttercup comb. It’s not always as straight forward as I made it sound a couple of paragraphs up, but the 97% rule can be a powerful tool in helping you select your breeders.

Oh I knew it was being simplified for me...and I know that I am asking about mutts...where the toss of the genes could bring out a lot of different things...and most likely brown eggs and not fun colors.

One interesting thing. The mutt that I've calculated must be a Welsummer/EE mix...has what I can best describe as "eye brows" ....not truly but you get the idea....she has some feathers just above her eyes that give her a brow over each...I've no idea what that would be called on a chicken....but I'm sure there is a term. And she has a funky comb type. I would classify it as a single comb....but she's got practically nothing until her crown where it spikes up. At first I wondered if she would get a buttercup, but it hasn't rounded out into a cup or anything, yet. It is still small at 17 weeks of age.

Anyway, I know she has a lot of competing genes in her. I probably should name her Heinz...she's tall like a Leghorn but has the muted coloring of a Welsummer (salmon chest/brown back, penciling), bright yellow legs, and a mahogany haze overlay on her body and a patterned gold overlay in her hackles. I originally thought she looked exactly like my Welsummer/RIR mix ( bought from a breeder), but as she grew she continues to amaze me by what else is in her. She has a red ear lobe, so it will be interesting to see what she lays.

I enjoy the genetics discussion and I thank you all for slowing it down bite by bite for me...even if they are useful lies. We all have to begin somewhere.

Lady of McCamley

 

[MyLittleRedCoop]

Wow!! This is all *fantastic* information!! I feel like I struck gold! Thank you!

I have to admit, I'm grateful for the middle school version, because with all the variables in combs and leg colors and dominant shell genes, it sort of reminds me of algebra when you start trying to figure out multiple variables. (Or like being on the "Sizzler" ride at the county fair...) This is all way beyond the white rabbit/black rabbit charts we learned!!

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly... it seems like for my purposes, it might be easier just to get a few more EE pullets and a Leghorn roo (because they lay white eggs) so I have a better chance of getting more blue eggs further down the line? Because as best as I can tell, I don't really have any EE breeders anywhere locally, so would likely get them at the feed store again or through mail order. Which means I'm not going to have a clue about the parentage of the roo, let alone the color of eggs they would have laid...

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

Wow!! This is all *fantastic* information!! I feel like I struck gold! Thank you!

I have to admit, I'm grateful for the middle school version, because with all the variables in combs and leg colors and dominant shell genes, it sort of reminds me of algebra when you start trying to figure out multiple variables. (Or like being on the "Sizzler" ride at the county fair...)

This is all way beyond the white rabbit/black rabbit charts we learned!!

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly... it seems like for my purposes, it might be easier just to get a few more EE pullets and a Leghorn roo (because they lay white eggs) so I have a better chance of getting more blue eggs further down the line? Because as best as I can tell, I don't really have any EE breeders anywhere locally, so would likely get them at the feed store again or through mail order. Which means I'm not going to have a clue about the parentage of the roo, let alone the color of eggs they would have laid...

Yes, I'd say this is the easiest way to make blue egg layers for you. (As ridgerunner pointed out, this is going to be very simplified) Most EEs from hatcheries seem to very reliably carry one or two copies of the blue egg gene, since the hatchery wants to make sure their customers get the green and blue eggs. That means that your EE hens would be either Bl Bl (lay blue eggs) or Bl Br (lay green eggs) or Bl w (lay blue eggs). Your white Leghorn roo will be ww for certain. You can drop those genotypes into the Punnett Squares to see what the possible outcomes would be, but you'd get a minimum of 50% blue egg layers from your matings. You would also get a boost in the egg size and frequency of laying by using the Leghorn roo. The only downside I can see is that white Leghorn roos are notoriously aggressive--were it me, I'd get a minimum of six boys and then cull any that show the first signs of aggression, keeping only the least aggressive boy or two at the end. Remember that "friendliness" can actually be an early sign of rooster aggression in chicks, because walking right up to a big scary human is actually a pretty aggressive thing for a chick to do.

And actually... I've never thought about adding a white Leghorn roo to my flock. I tend to do mine the other way around, using an Ameraucana rooster over a white Leghorn hen to make EEs--Hey Ridgerunner! Does egglaying capability come more through the male side or the female side of the mating?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Both. A rooster contributes a full set of genes to all his offspring. A hen contributes a full set to her boys but withholds the sex linked genes from her daughters. That’s what makes them girls. I don’t have a clue if any of the egglaying genes are sex linked or not, so I’d assume each contributes equally. If there is a sex linked gene involved, the rooster will contribute more.

Since a rooster doesn’t lay eggs it’s a bit uncertain exactly what he is contributing. That’s why you normally look at the hen for egg contribution. At least you know what you are getting from her. I’d think a leghorn over an EE or Ameraucana would really help the egglaying of the offspring and would contribute to keeping the eggs blue.

JVeith, I think you are on the right track. Like WOS said, that rooster will contribute white and you can see what the hen is contributing by her egg. So if you hatch blue eggs from that cross, you should get some blue egg layers. The correct genetic symbol fort the blue egg gene is capital “O”, for the white gene a small case “o” so I’ll use those. Assuming you only hatch blue eggs and the leghorn is the daddy:

The hen might be pure for the blue egg gene, or OO. If she is, she will give a blue gene to all her offspring. The leghorn rooster is oo and will give all offspring an o. Using the Punnett Squares you get every offspring will get Oo, so the pullets will all lay blue eggs.

If the hen is split Oo, she will still lay a blue egg but half her offspring will be Oo and half will be oo. So half her pullets will lay blue eggs and half will lay white. As long as you hatch blue or green eggs, you always have at least a 50% chance the pullets will lay a blue or green egg even if the rooster only contributes white.

 

[MyLittleRedCoop]

Yes, I'd say this is the easiest way to make blue egg layers for you. (As ridgerunner pointed out, this is going to be very simplified) Most EEs from hatcheries seem to very reliably carry one or two copies of the blue egg gene, since the hatchery wants to make sure their customers get the green and blue eggs. That means that your EE hens would be either Bl Bl (lay blue eggs) or Bl Br (lay green eggs) or Bl w (lay blue eggs). Your white Leghorn roo will be ww for certain. You can drop those genotypes into the Punnett Squares to see what the possible outcomes would be, but you'd get a minimum of 50% blue egg layers from your matings. You would also get a boost in the egg size and frequency of laying by using the Leghorn roo. The only downside I can see is that white Leghorn roos are notoriously aggressive--were it me, I'd get a minimum of six boys and then cull any that show the first signs of aggression, keeping only the least aggressive boy or two at the end. Remember that "friendliness" can actually be an early sign of rooster aggression in chicks, because walking right up to a big scary human is actually a pretty aggressive thing for a chick to do.

And actually... I've never thought about adding a white Leghorn roo to my flock. I tend to do mine the other way around, using an Ameraucana rooster over a white Leghorn hen to make EEs--Hey Ridgerunner! Does egglaying capability come more through the male side or the female side of the mating?

Hmmm... Ok. Yeah, that was my next line of research, was to find out more about the personality of the Leghorns. I remembered looking at the breed a bit, but couldn't remember why it didn't pass muster for getting into my top 10 preferred breeds. That aggression would likely be why. (Also why I don't have any RIRs in my flock, despite loving the "red" color.)

My first batch of straight runs just finished maturing, and I finally finished up my "rooster selection process" about a month ago. I got a straight run of 17, of several breed types and did exactly what you suggested. I figured with that many, I would have a good chance of finding a couple good roos. (Primary and "back-up" in case something happened to the primary) I had them all banded and kept a tally of breed-specific traits along with a personal record of "wrong-doings" (human-oriented aggression, hen-oriented aggression). So far, I'm pretty pleased with the roos I picked (and the one we've eaten so far, was pretty tasty!) But I was SO ready for the stinkers to be gone when the time came!! I have no tolerance for aggression. When I have room for another roo, I can give it a try and see if any of the Leghorns are keepers. If not, I'll have a freezer full of chicken. Win-win, right?

I wish there was a reliable EE breeder near me... Getting a good blue-gened (blue-jeaned? lol!!) EE roo would be great, as I could have all kinds of blues and greens that way. I could get a dozen straight run EEs, as chicks, but I wouldn't know which roo would have the right parentage...?

So, say I have the leghorn roo and a blue-laying EE... If I take the fertile eggs (only the blue EE ones) and let a broody hatch them... Theoretically, then, any resulting roo would be able to be crossed with a white layer or an EE and make blue eggs? Assuming I separate the brown laying roos from the EEs for a month before collecting the eggs?

 

[enola]

I crossed an Araucana rooster on white leghorns and brown leghorns. The pullets from the white leghorns laid a pale blue egg that faded to nearly white by the end of their laying cycle. However the pullets from the brown leghorns laid a nice blue egg and they stayed blue through the whole laying cycle.

 

[chickenbusiness]

If I mix a lavender (true) ameraucana rooster with a lavender orpington what will this make if anything. They both are beautiful color of lavender one is darker and one is lighter lavender.

Thank you for your help.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

Hmmm... Ok. Yeah, that was my next line of research, was to find out more about the personality of the Leghorns. I remembered looking at the breed a bit, but couldn't remember why it didn't pass muster for getting into my top 10 preferred breeds. That aggression would likely be why. (Also why I don't have any RIRs in my flock, despite loving the "red" color.)

My first batch of straight runs just finished maturing, and I finally finished up my "rooster selection process" about a month ago. I got a straight run of 17, of several breed types and did exactly what you suggested. I figured with that many, I would have a good chance of finding a couple good roos. (Primary and "back-up" in case something happened to the primary) I had them all banded and kept a tally of breed-specific traits along with a personal record of "wrong-doings" (human-oriented aggression, hen-oriented aggression). So far, I'm pretty pleased with the roos I picked (and the one we've eaten so far, was pretty tasty!) But I was SO ready for the stinkers to be gone when the time came!! I have no tolerance for aggression. When I have room for another roo, I can give it a try and see if any of the Leghorns are keepers. If not, I'll have a freezer full of chicken. Win-win, right?

I wish there was a reliable EE breeder near me... Getting a good blue-gened (blue-jeaned? lol!!) EE roo would be great, as I could have all kinds of blues and greens that way. I could get a dozen straight run EEs, as chicks, but I wouldn't know which roo would have the right parentage...?

So, say I have the leghorn roo and a blue-laying EE... If I take the fertile eggs (only the blue EE ones) and let a broody hatch them... Theoretically, then, any resulting roo would be able to be crossed with a white layer or an EE and make blue eggs? Assuming I separate the brown laying roos from the EEs for a month before collecting the eggs?

Sounds to me like you're doing it right. If I lived near you, I'd buy EEs from you!

I think YOU'RE becoming the breeder that you're looking for.

As far as separating your hens, you're right. Separate for 2-3 weeks before introducing your favored roo. Doesn't matter if you remove the roos or separate the hens.

Also, three things come to mind for your EE problem.
First, where in the world are you? I just hatched a batch of blue and black Ameraucanas simply to get the roosters I wanted for my breeding program. I have six, and will be selling at least four. If you're close, or you are coming to the Ohio National Poultry Show (it's in my backyard, practically) I will sell you one cheap.

Secondly, do you ever get any broody hens? I've found that I get really great hatches from shipped eggs under a broody hen. You can talk to Ameraucana breeders on the Ameraucana thread here on BYC, and many will be willing to ship you out some eggs quickly after a lady goes broody for you. I paid $35/dozen including shipping, which was a good price. Then, you have your reliable source of blue egg genetics and you can take it from there.

Finally, you can search out an Ameraucana breeder near you. One of the best ways to identify a "real" Ameraucana breeder is if they tell you the color of the birds up front. In other words, "Americana chickens lay blue and green eggs" are likely to be Easter Eggers. "Wheaten Ameraucanas" are much more likely to be purebred. Then, ask the breeder what lines he/she used in their breeding program. They should know, and if they mention a feed store or a hatchery you'll know they really have EEs.

If you can get actual Ameraucana roosters, it simplifies your breeding program immensely because anything you breed to them will throw a green or blue egg.