Are my birds suitable for eating?

[ShrekDawg]

I don't think it's even a Dominique cross.. because according to my understanding which is admittedly limited and still growing.. a straight comb is the absence of any modifying comb genes.. and a (pure) rose comb bird crossed to a straight combed bird would produce rose combed offspring..
https://poultry.extension.org/articles/poultry-anatomy/poultry-genetics-an-introduction/

I'd enjoy this flock for what it is including dinner and work towards starting with fresh hatchery or NPIP certified heritage breeder birds.. to achieve the laying, meat, personality, growth rate, etc.. that you want.. Wyandotte are very decent.. Orp are so far off my list as they are slow growing, over rated, beautiful birds.

Yes I can/do sell my extra grow out pullets usually for $20-30 each.. which is way more value than a night on the dinner table.. but space is ALWAYS a prime.. and even with larger acreage.. the birds tend to stay under cover like trees and bushes.. and within a certain "home range" of their coop.. My personal goal.. 1 chicken dinner per week.. I lose some to predation and a couple to Marek's.. but hatching a dozen eggs every 2 or three weeks.. I figure might just about do it.. never mind chicken math!

You might want to start a new thread about your bird that's walking low to the ground today.. that can be one symptom of Marek's.. but please assess the situation before jumping to any scary conclusions but also expediently.. look for any heat, swelling, cut, etc that indicates possible injury. And when/if you start your new thread.. include AGE, feed routine including treats etc, how long they've been at your place, and any other information that might seem relevant or offer clues.

Agreed although that said, my Lavender Orpington cockerel that I had was huge and he grew relatively fast I think but then I don’t have a ton to compare him to ha but he was way bigger than my other birds even at like 4 months (6 almost 7 pounds ) and then kept filling out. Both of his sons (one LO/EE and on LO/WL) also are massive at 5 months and doubled their sister’s size about a couple months ago maybe? They were similar sizes then one day doubled

Anyway, don’t mean to disagree or be a pain or whatever but just figured I’d mention it cause mine was a total moose and I wouldn’t say grew any slower than the other cockerels I had but he did eat a ton and he was hatchery too but hatched myself from their eggs.

But I think it depends for sure though because my buffs from the same hatchery always stayed kinda runty and small and I thought that was really weird cause they’re supposed to be huge haha so not all are big cause mine are still tiny but my roo was like a 2 foot tall beast so maybe the boys grow faster? He seems to have passed his size down as even the girls are pretty big though not quite as.

Also, my Delaware grew insanely fast as a chick but not sure if that is normal or not. My Australorps are massive too as was my BR but I don’t think they grew fast at least not the Australorp but my BRs did I think.

Sorry, now I’m rambling haha but anyway, I know most Orps are very slow growing so i may have had a fluke but mine did eat a lot so maybe not the best return but would certainly add carcass size even if not a ton of meat

 

[ShrekDawg]

I don't think it's even a Dominique cross.. because according to my understanding which is admittedly limited and still growing.. a straight comb is the absence of any modifying comb genes.. and a (pure) rose comb bird crossed to a straight combed bird would produce rose combed offspring..
https://poultry.extension.org/articles/poultry-anatomy/poultry-genetics-an-introduction/

I'd enjoy this flock for what it is including dinner and work towards starting with fresh hatchery or NPIP certified heritage breeder birds.. to achieve the laying, meat, personality, growth rate, etc.. that you want.. Wyandotte are very decent.. Orp are so far off my list as they are slow growing, over rated, beautiful birds.

Yes I can/do sell my extra grow out pullets usually for $20-30 each.. which is way more value than a night on the dinner table.. but space is ALWAYS a prime.. and even with larger acreage.. the birds tend to stay under cover like trees and bushes.. and within a certain "home range" of their coop.. My personal goal.. 1 chicken dinner per week.. I lose some to predation and a couple to Marek's.. but hatching a dozen eggs every 2 or three weeks.. I figure might just about do it.. never mind chicken math!

You might want to start a new thread about your bird that's walking low to the ground today.. that can be one symptom of Marek's.. but please assess the situation before jumping to any scary conclusions but also expediently.. look for any heat, swelling, cut, etc that indicates possible injury. And when/if you start your new thread.. include AGE, feed routine including treats etc, how long they've been at your place, and any other information that might seem relevant or offer clues.

Also I have Mareks on my property too and I thought that meant you couldn’t sell or whatever? Cause I remember when it showed up in some of mine earlier this year, I was so upset cause I had wanted to hatch and sell chicks or started birds possibly and thought that meant the end of that or that if I moved, I’d have to leave the birds here or cull so as not to spread it.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Also I have Mareks on my property too and I thought that meant you couldn’t sell or whatever? Cause I remember when it showed up in some of mine earlier this year, I was so upset cause I had wanted to hatch and sell chicks or started birds possibly and thought that meant the end of that or that if I moved, I’d have to leave the birds here or cull so as not to spread it.

Technically the only thing stopping you is morality. >_>; At best it would be a civil suit if you could prove negligence and failure to disclose. I would be DEEPLY upset if someone sold me a bird with undisclosed Mareks and frankly would never forgive that person. It's an unregulated disease and it shouldn't be. But unregulated is unregulated.

 

[ShrekDawg]

Technically the only thing stopping you is morality. >_>; At best it would be a civil suit if you could prove negligence and failure to disclose. I would be DEEPLY upset if someone sold me a bird with undisclosed Mareks and frankly would never forgive that person. It's an unregulated disease and it shouldn't be. But unregulated is unregulated.

Yeah, I would feel awful about it which is why I was upset when it popped up cause I had figured I could sell chicks since I got a rooster or like earlier this year when the TSC chicks went on super super sale and were like a quarter or whatever and I thought I could raise started pullets and get some money back but nope, couldnt get them. idk what I’m gonna do if I move because I love my current birds a ton don’t want to contaminate a new property. Anyway, should definitely be regulated because it is an awful, awful disease and having to cull two birds I raised from my first hatch ever was awful! It’s a terrible disease.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Also I have Mareks on my property too and I thought that meant you couldn’t sell or whatever? Cause I remember when it showed up in some of mine earlier this year, I was so upset cause I had wanted to hatch and sell chicks or started birds possibly and thought that meant the end of that or that if I moved, I’d have to leave the birds here or cull so as not to spread it.

Well, NPIP doesn't even require testing for Marek's or consider it a reportable disease. I PERSONALLY consider vaccinating an ignorant cop out and denial.. for flock that keep ONLY vaccinated birds.. and have never sent one in for testing.. Just because I'm educated enough to know about getting a necropsy and care about not only MY flock but ultimately the worlds flocks and DISAGREE about vaccinating being the RESPONSIBLE choice but rather consider it the fear mongered and brain washed sheeple herding of big pharma repeating what they were told!

The vaccine is a FALSE sense of security HIDING symptoms and allowing live virus to proliferate instead of killing itself out. For me, as someone who IS actively breeding for RESISTANCE to disease.. I KNOW I take flack and get strong opposition on this subject from well trusted and respected members, especially those who DON'T have a diagnosis.. I don't care though because I consider myself the salt of the world.

No, I would not purchase chicks and sell with known Marek's possibly popping up in any at any point.. Could you quarantine well enough to raise chicks to off heat and sell before exposure.. or raise PAST POL and then sell as showing resistance.. anywhere in the middle SEEMS more questionable and risky.. MAYBE one persons version of selecting for resistance even if they can't actively breed?? I mean it happens every year without us knowing it and more and more people are transporting things MUCH easier than in times past. I'm still learning, and I try not to judge but rather follow the science.

Trusting in the vaccine includes trusting it was stored properly during handling and shipping, administered properly, at the proper time, quarantined properly, and so on.. I'm sorry, I don't have that much faith. The human error factor outweighs the ALLEGED benefit.. which IF it works JUST HIDES SYMPTOMS..

Thanks for sharing your Orp story.. GREAT point, ALL are individuals.. select towards our desired goals!

I ALWAYS give FULL disclosure and consider it ONE of the traits touted in MY line..Resistance to Marek's!!!

I cannot believe the UC Davis lab suggested I vaccinate ALL future birds, and without even asking my personal goals! Lousy opinion and advice for ME, but MAYBE a good choice for someone who isn't breeding and cannot accept POSSIBLE fallout. However they MAY sell off their NON symptomatic bird and it could still be spreading Marek's.. but ignorance somehow by getting or keeping only vaccinated bird or by having a flock that hasn't succumb.. suddenly makes it morally okay?? I think NOT. What is full disclosure and regulation anyways.. will it be disclosed to new buyers or renters and now suddenly effect property values.. emotionally if not monetarily.. and does regulation mean NO back yard flocks, all birds are vaccinated, or what.. who wins? I wonder if hatch date effects Marek's resistance due to seasonal migration hitting at particularly susceptible age, timing.. etc.. there's an inner scientist, philosopher, HOLD these questions to the light and SEE what happens inside me.. Inside ALL of us.. and while I don't condone animal testing, I certainly recognize we ALL have PERSONAL challenges and limits.

I just sold a trio of Lamona for $300.. Bought un-vaccinated from GFF.. That's how many made it to maturity and continued thriving out of 8. I made it CLEAR to the teenage kid AND his mother that ALL others had started limping and been culled. Survival of the strongest only, in THIS regard.. in MY flock.

I went to buy POL birds from a guy with an egg handlers license. Knowing I'm an avid poultry fancier, he invited me to see his set up.. I already had realized I forgot to put on my "public" shoes and respectfully declined, stating I saw Marek's for the first time this year. At which point it was disclosed it was also there. About 2 weeks later, I have culled 1/6.. the Marek's she was displaying (according to symptoms) could not have come from my house since it takes at LEAST 3 weeks before symptoms can appear. Also, my understanding is it can travel up to 3 miles and on wild birds. All neighbors around me keep chickens and too many people see free chickens and bring them home.. not caring one bit about disease transmission to their neighbors. But it get WORSE.. that person wouldn't likely have said ANYTHING about Marek's were it not for my banter, I've seen other "rare breeds" sold regularly by the SAME seller, AND he said he usually SHOWS.

The teenager who bought the trio ALSO is a grand puba show champion for ducks or something to that effect... and told me he HAD seen Marek's in his chicken flock about 5 hours from me. Then I stated that although the birds are showing resistance to whatever strain is here it could be a different strain there.

Please understand Kdog and chocomouse that I am VERY sorry for your experience, COMPLETELY understand your sentiment, and I'm truly sorry if my "breed for resistance" take pains you.

Also understand that if someone were to never forgive.. it's THEM that it's eating alive from the inside like cancer, while having almost no impact on the unforgiven person.. If they did it knowingly then they don't care and aren't worth your energy going to anger. If they did it unknowingly, then they can't change the past, so maybe re-purpose that energy into educating them so they MIGHT not repeat it??

Technically the only thing stopping you is morality. >_>; At best it would be a civil suit if you could prove negligence and failure to disclose. I would be DEEPLY upset if someone sold me a bird with undisclosed Mareks and frankly would never forgive that person. It's an unregulated disease and it shouldn't be. But unregulated is unregulated.

Bring a civil suit and PROVE it came from my house (just a general statement and not a personal challenge). According to ALL the veterinary AND UC stuff I have read.. Marek's is "ubiquitous" in poultry environments... WORLD wide. Not having confirmation is NOT the same as being Marek's free. Quite frankly other things like CRD or infectious bronchitis would be WAY more upsetting to ME.

My reply is all over the place with respect to organization, a bit like my brain. Over all I agree with you that it SHOULD be considered for regulation, it's an awful and heartbreaking disease for some and I don't have ALL the answers.. Nor do I believe one answer will be good for everyone. We have the same "moral" value, just don't agree about HOW to get there.

What little I have done with disclosure.. Incubator hatched NOT vaccinated chicks, laying and breeding stock from pasture that never showed ANY symptom ever but rather resistance. Since diagnosis no juveniles who have been to pasture and MIGHT still succumb have been offered. NOT one person EVER reported back with concerns caused by me. I'm passionate about what I do and believe in protecting those who can't protect themselves! A "sell" or re-home will NEVER come above another person OR their pets/livestock or even MY pet's/livestock's well-being.. Some people's lives and lively hood of their entire family literally depends on their animals thriving!

@TarynH My apologies for semi hijacking your thread, If you will let me tie this back to your original question and make it a valid part of the conversation.. you MIGHT want to not bring ANY more unknown birds onto your property or at some point might start considering your own bio-security importance... I have tons invested in my flock and Marek's is just a word to me. Although I have not eaten any SYMPTOMATIC or diagnosed Marek's bird, they are considered safe for consumption is my current understanding and I do feed them to the feral barn cats. But I can LEGALLY put them in my trash and send them to the.. uhm.. TRANSFER center.. because or trash goes elsewhere?! Oh gosh.. try hard though we do.. how much bio security control do we truly impart. NPIP sellers are required to either bury on their property or burn any remains.. so MAYBE that helps SOME even if all their stock IS vaccinated AND also carrying MDV..

Too many thoughts.. when all I really wanna say is Merry Christmas!

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Wow, that was a wall.
Not all flocks have Mareks and it's worth avoiding.
It's not my fault NPIP doesn't scan for it, that doesn't make it not devastating.
It's not even worth trying to address all that.
I don't care if people breed for resistance as long as they're not selling birds to people who are gonna give it to my birds because they have terrible biosecurity or don't wanna disclose it.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I had a small scare months ago when I lost a bird. She didn't show any symptoms I'm familiar with, and we didn't end up doing a necropsy, but that was the first leap I came to when she started showing she was ill. As far as I know now, she didn't have it since none of my birds showed anything that would suggest she died from it.

Before I joined here, I never even considered mareks. It was the same as the flu to me before and I didn't think it was such a big deal. Now I know better and quarantine properly and don't bring as many birds into my flock as I used to, especially from people I don't personally know. I stick with eggs and hatchery birds.

I don't vaccinate simply because I have no reason to. To do so would result in my older birds contracting it and dying and that's my main reason not to. If I have to start a new flock when I move, I might. But if I can bring my birds with me, I won't.

I do think the honorable thing though is to warn people before buying if you have it or have vaccinated birds. From what I understand, one vaccinated bird could decimate my flock.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Well, a vaccinated bird and an unvaccinated bird are the same if they're mareks-free. So a vaccinated bird from, say, a flock with a mix of vaxxed and unvaxxed birds is probably safe to buy because that person has some of their birds as "canaries in a coal mine" so if their flock gets infected they'd likely know. Even the "coolest" strains of Mareks are like 50% fatal and that's hard to miss.
It's only if a flock is entirely vaccinated that you run into concerns. A vaccinated flock that has Mareks will only lose about 5% of its birds to Mareks and that's potentially not enough to even notice.
All my birds are unvaxxed for Mareks because the vaccine is leaky and I'd rather get rid of them if they got sick than not.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don't vaccinate simply because I have no reason to. To do so would result in my older birds contracting it and dying and that's my main reason not to.

Vaccinating does not give them Marek's. Vaccinating does not make then carriers. Your older birds will not get Marek's because you vaccinate other birds for Marek's.

I'll say it another way. If your older birds get Marek's they did not get it from the vaccinations. They got it from a source other than the vaccine.

The way you phrases that it sounds like you think vaccinating will cause those birds to be carriers. It will not.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Vaccinating does not give them Marek's. Vaccinating does not make then carriers. Your older birds will not get Marek's because you vaccinate other birds for Marek's.

I'll say it another way. If your older birds get Marek's they did not get it from the vaccinations. They got it from a source other than the vaccine.

The way you phrases that it sounds like you think vaccinating will cause those birds to be carriers. It will not.

I did actually think that, so thank you for clarifying. I always heard the vaccine was leaky, which meant that it shed particles of the virus as the bird lived, and basically infected the bird but kept it alive