Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[sherpagirl]

Rachel dont get your comment???? I am showing my fossil rock Barnevelders
I have tried to get others interested in them
I talk to people at show interested in them
Are you showing??? Most of the enthusiasts left this thread thinking it was dominated by west coast people who arent interested in showing!!! As far as i can determine my stock is 100percent Barnevelder no mixing for size etc. i am interested in participating to improve the breed! Not for ribbons prizes!!! Rare beautiful kind Dutch chickens

I started raising Barnevelders in 2009 and I have not mixed in any other breed into the double laced black variety.
Farmer Johan used to tell me, " When something is perfect, you should not change it." He imported his Barnevelders from the Netherlands in the 1970s and kept a closed flock.

 

[tls_ranch]

Rachel dont get your comment???? I am showing my fossil rock Barnevelders
I have tried to get others interested in them
I talk to people at show interested in them
Are you showing??? Most of the enthusiasts left this thread thinking it was dominated by west coast people who arent interested in showing!!! As far as i can determine my stock is 100percent Barnevelder no mixing for size etc. i am interested in participating to improve the breed! Not for ribbons prizes!!! Rare beautiful kind Dutch chickens

Excuse me, but I believe you are implying that the " west coast people who aren't even interested in showing" is me. I said I wasn't interested in showing for several reasons. But Walt, Chad and others kept on implying that I wanted to change the SOP for my own benefit so as to win at shows or sell more birds. All I tried to do is bring up possible issues with the APA SOP that differ from the Dutch standard. I thought Walt would be interested and give unbiassed advice. I brought up the idea of editing the SOP to Walt on the urging of one of the original qualifying meet breeders. The resulting discussion ended up focusing on why I don't want to follow the APA SOP exactly and why I don't show.

Looking back, all that garbage talk ended up being infuriating and ridiculous at the same time. The drama, gossip, misleading info and bad mouthing (here and elsewhere) seems similar to what I experienced showing horses for nearly 25 years. This " chicken drama" seems trivial to what can happen with horse breeders, exhibitors, trainers and judges. Sometimes the worst were highly respected breeders, multiple world champions, "certified judges" and "hall of fame-ers". At least a "well respected chicken judge" won't almost kill you with a chicken. It was pretty eye opening to work for a "well respected horse judge" and have him scream and cuss at you that it's your job to sacrifice your life to protect him no matter what. It's a long story, but I really have a hard time now with respecting people just because of titles etc. I think in hindsight maybe I should of just kept to myself rather than seeking advice about the SOP. I should of known better than to stick my neck out. Lesson learned...

Right now, I just want to enjoy working with and improving my birds. I think maybe I should start a very small private group with a just a handful of dedicated barnie breeders. That way we can share info gathered from around the world ( not just the APA), bounce ideas around about how to breed good barnies and critique our birds without seeming to " dominate" anyone here on the BYC.

Go ahead and show your birds Honestly...Good for you! Be glad that you can show, but please don't judge others for not showing. They may have reasons not to show that are completely valid in their situation.

Good night,

Trisha

 

[Apdeb]

Serious imo are the people on the heritage thread who have been at it for 10 yrs plus
iTS VERY HUMBLING WHEN AN ORPHINGTON BREEDER FROM MAINE THANKS YOU FOR BRINGING BARNEVELDERS. Hasnt seen them at shows for 25 yrs!!! I am not a judge not interested in any color varities!!!! I think the old timers would be proud the few of us are showing!!! Best way to promote the breed/fancy!!!! I was not attacking you tls! My only wish is to spread love of this breed. Maybe someday there will be as many Barnevelders as Buff Brahmas at the shows!!!! I am happy and thankful for walt to critique our birds!
We will not better ourselves or our breed arguing!!! Im proud of Donnas work!!!!

 

[Happy Chooks]

I would like to hear from you guys!!! Am I the only person besides chad stoner showing Barnevelders??????

I don't currently show my birds, but am considering it at some point. My plan is to first attend a poultry show.

I do know Andy and Royce show their birds.

Serious imo are the people on the heritage thread who have been at it for 10 yrs plus
iTS VERY HUMBLING WHEN AN ORPHINGTON BREEDER FROM MAINE THANKS YOU FOR BRINGING BARNEVELDERS. Hasnt seen them at shows for 25 yrs!!! I am not a judge not interested in any color varities!!!! I think the old timers would be proud the few of us are showing!!! Best way to promote the breed/fancy!!!! I was not attacking you tls! My only wish is to spread love of this breed. Maybe someday there will be as many Barnevelders as Buff Brahmas at the shows!!!! I am happy and thankful for walt to critique our birds!
We will not better ourselves or our breed arguing!!! Im proud of Donnas work!!!!

A suggestion - there is no H in Orpington.

And Trisha has done a fantastic job promoting the breed. It doesn't have to involve showing - there are many ways to promote a breed. And an argumentative thread is the fastest way to lose new folks to the breed.

 

[sherpagirl]

I love Barnevelders. There is just something about them. It would be nice if there were more nice Barnies around for people to enjoy, but I do worry about the breed being exploited. Do you think we should try to revive the old yahoo group? New yahoo group? New website? Or we could start a new Facebook group - maybe The Complete Barnevelder Group ? The Whole Barnevelder Group? or i'm sure there is a better name. But its focus would be on the whole Barnevelder, egg color and production, Barnies as meat bird, etc., not just the show bird aspects. There are quite a few of us who are serious about our birds but showing is not the priority. I have chickens for fun and I hope to keep it that way. Can we try to form a new group of like minds?

 

[Rancher3535]

I love Barnevelders. There is just something about them. It would be nice if there were more nice Barnies around for people to enjoy, but I do worry about the breed being exploited. Do you think we should try to revive the old yahoo group? New yahoo group? New website? Or we could start a new Facebook group - maybe The Complete Barnevelder Group ? The Whole Barnevelder Group? or i'm sure there is a better name. But its focus would be on the whole Barnevelder, egg color and production, Barnies as meat bird, etc., not just the show bird aspects. There are quite a few of us who are serious about our birds but showing is not the priority. I have chickens for fun and I hope to keep it that way. Can we try to form a new group of like minds?

Sorry I will be on the outs of many I am sure with this post. I spend time reading post and rarely make any comments in any of the breed groups I am in. I like my Barnevelders but get very frustrated with the breed and often want to sell them all off. I have shown them and been fairly successful in that venue. What I find is so interesting that the "Experts" of textbook learning have all the answers with little real knowledge of the breeding aspects. The "Experts" of years of breeding knowledge get frustrated with the fact that they are doing the breeding by observations and their knowledge of the breed. Therefore, myself included, they do not always understand the textbook side. No one has the real true answers but everyone can and should contribute what they have learned. Just because someone does not agree with someone’s comment does not mean you have to get your feathers all ruffled and break up a group. There are 101 groups out there and each has their own idea of what is right. Yes some come in and start up a ruckus but take it with a grain of salt and move on.

We all need to learn as much about how to improve egg production (very little out there about that), egg color and keeping them true to the conformation of the breed as we can. We should all work hand in hand to improve the breed. When a breed concentrates only on one aspect of the breed, all of the other parts go to pot. People just need to learn to not get their feathers ruffled up when someone says something that they do not like. I have seen several people get into the groups and cause a ton of problems because of their "Expert" attitude then the group moves to a new place to find out the same thing happens.

Sorry just frustrated about not really learning enough and hearing to much about the he said she said …

 

[Dr Bjorn Netland]

Ladies and Gentlemen:
Things are getting curiouser and curiouser! Aspects of any chicken breed are many, and the Barnevelder does not represent an exception in that regard. As in most cases, the idea of "purity" can sometimes be far-fetched. I know for a fact, for instance, that several "famous" single comb white Leghorn breeders crossed their Leghorns with other breeds, and when they achieved success in the show room, people offered their congratulations. During the banquet following a show I attended, one of the judges related his success in this regard (and looking around, I could see "disgust" and "disbelief" on the faces of some). Such cross breedings have been going on for years and years...to improve show points, to develop new varieties, to enhance vigor, what have you. Standard revisions have also been commonplace, and will be in the future. While every organization is free to adopt the standard members decide should be right for them, it may nonetheless be a matter of common sense and wisdom to take into account the many years of breeder experience from a breed's country of origin.
The Barnevelder faced multiple problems during the 1930s, as it had become rather popular also outside The Netherlands (German, The UK) as well--at the same time the brown egg laying American breeds became the thing (RIRs, New Hampshires) and the production qualities of some of the British brown egg layers improved. The Barnies were known for their susceptibility to Marek's, and--while respectable--their production quality could not match that of the other brown egg laying breeds. To add to that, the ideals in the various locations evolved along different routes. Perhaps the British (I only suggest this) veered farther away from the original than others (they tend to stake their own way in many things), but the German ideal also developed in a slightly different direction from the Dutch (which people are now trying to overcome through a unification effort). In the push to go for ever-more perfect show specimens, some aspects were neglected. Vigor was something that received attention in this process, I presume, but the production qualities were put on the back burner, according to some (this was something an old breeder in England claimed when we had a chat about 30 years ago). Both the quantity and the quality of the once-famous Barnie eggs suffered.
It would be unreasonable to suggest that breeders--wherever they were located--over the years have not crossed in other breeds in their Barnevelder flocks over the years. The Dutch, the British, the Germans, -- and we here in North America -- have been using these stratagems since the beginning of time, and will continue to do so. If anybody in her or his right mind thinks that she or he has a "pure" Barnevelder, Welsummer, Leghorn, or whatever, I will only shrug my shoulders and leave that person to her or his personal belief system. Acquiring birds and then keeping them in a closed flock for many years does not make those birds more "pure" than others; but one should be able to stabilize certain traits...conformation, productivity, or whatever.
I was a breeder of Barnevelders for years, and I truly admire the beautiful birds when they come out right. I have had birds from Dutch, German, and unknown origin, and I loved them all, despite some of the challenges inherent in the breed. I have raised bantams and large fowl alike.
The way I understand it, this thread is not exclusively an appeal to all of us to work together to improve the show bird, but it is "to work together and improve the breed," That means: production, eggshell color, vigor, conformation, SOP issues--everything. Whether we show or not should not matter one whit. Of course, it is laudable that there are people who promote the breed by showing their birds, but a great deal of credit needs to be sent in the direction of those who, while they may not be showing, keep working to produce good birds; and that includes developing new varieties.
The Dutch are somewhat reluctant to accepting new varieties of Barnevelders and Welsummers, but the Germans are not, and the British are also more open to such innovations. Such differences do not give rise to a World War III, however, and neither should they here. Personally, I am immensely impressed by what Trisha has achieved, for instance, and I have seen pictures of some of Royce's birds that I have also admired.
There is no reason whatsoever to get upset at the suggestion that we might consider revising our APA SOP when it comes to certain points. Those revisions happen all the time, and I would totally support a revision as far as the breast color of the male is concerned. I showed birds at the qualifying meet, I have raised the breed for years, and I have studied both Dutch material (I can read Dutch, and I have gone through stuff from the 1930s onward) as well as German and British material. In other words, I came to the breed not only through a theoretical avenue but also through years of experience. Dr. Hans Schippers saw my birds and critiqued them and subsequently arranged to have shipped to me and Lowell Barber hatching eggs from top breeders in Holland. By the way, I sent birds to the city of Barneveld in NY state on the occasion of the city's anniversary, and those birds were offspring from the last shipment of Dutch hatching eggs.
In brief, I support a push for the improvement of the breed by all--exhibitors and non-exhibitors alike--in ALL ASPECTS of the breed: breeding practices, quantity and quality of eggs, conformation, etc.
Happy Halloween to all.
Bjorn

 

[palmpatch]

Hi everyone
My first post . Hope for some feed back on one of six pullets, this one at 10 weeks is showing a little different lacing in the breast feathering , a keeper ? The other are 5 Barnevelders type ,
Many thanks
Ray

 

[Happy Chooks]

We all need to learn as much about how to improve egg production (very little out there about that), egg color and keeping them true to the conformation of the breed as we can. We should all work hand in hand to improve the breed. When a breed concentrates only on one aspect of the breed, all of the other parts go to pot. People just need to learn to not get their feathers ruffled up when someone says something that they do not like. I have seen several people get into the groups and cause a ton of problems because of their "Expert" attitude then the group moves to a new place to find out the same thing happens.

Sorry just frustrated about not really learning enough and hearing to much about the he said she said …

I have not worked with it yet, but I've been told by some old time breeders that you increase egg production through the spread between the legs (wider can support more egg production) and a longer back. You would look for this in your males and females.

Hi everyone
My first post . Hope for some feed back on one of six pullets, this one at 10 weeks is showing a little different lacing in the breast feathering , a keeper ? The other are 5 Barnevelders type ,
Many thanks
Ray

I have never seen a pullet feather in like that. It's not proper lacing. Where did you get her? Is it possible she could be a cross?

And welcome to the group.

 

[ke5hde]

Ladies and Gentlemen:
Things are getting curiouser and curiouser! Aspects of any chicken breed are many, and the Barnevelder does not represent an exception in that regard. As in most cases, the idea of "purity" can sometimes be far-fetched. I know for a fact, for instance, that several "famous" single comb white Leghorn breeders crossed their Leghorns with other breeds, and when they achieved success in the show room, people offered their congratulations.  During the banquet following a show I attended, one of the judges related his success in this regard (and looking around, I could see "disgust" and "disbelief" on the faces of some). Such cross breedings have been going on for years and years...to improve show points, to develop new varieties, to enhance vigor, what have you. Standard revisions have also been commonplace, and will be in the future. While every organization is free to adopt the standard members decide should be right for them, it may nonetheless be a matter of common sense and wisdom to take into account the many years of breeder experience from a breed's country of origin. 
The Barnevelder faced multiple problems during the 1930s, as it had become rather popular also outside The Netherlands (German, The UK) as well--at the same time the brown egg laying American breeds became the thing (RIRs, New Hampshires) and the production qualities of some of the British brown egg layers improved.  The Barnies were known for their susceptibility to Marek's, and--while respectable--their production quality could not match that of the other brown egg laying breeds.  To add to that, the ideals in the various locations evolved along different routes. Perhaps the British (I only suggest this) veered farther away from the original than others (they tend to stake their own way in many things), but the German ideal also developed in a slightly different direction from the Dutch (which people are now trying to overcome through a unification effort). In the push to go for ever-more perfect show specimens, some aspects were neglected. Vigor was something that received attention in this process, I presume, but the production qualities were put on the back burner, according to some (this was something an old breeder in England claimed when we had a chat about 30 years ago).  Both the quantity and the quality of the once-famous Barnie eggs suffered.
It would be unreasonable to suggest that breeders--wherever they were located--over the years have not crossed in other breeds in their Barnevelder flocks over the years. The Dutch, the British, the Germans, -- and we here in North America -- have been using these stratagems since the beginning of time, and will continue to do so.  If anybody in her or his right mind thinks that she or he has a "pure" Barnevelder, Welsummer, Leghorn, or whatever, I will only shrug my shoulders and leave that person to her or his personal belief system. Acquiring birds and then keeping them in a closed flock for many years does not make those birds more "pure" than others; but one should be able to stabilize certain traits...conformation, productivity, or whatever.  
I was a breeder of Barnevelders for years, and I truly admire the beautiful birds when they come out right. I have had birds from Dutch, German, and unknown origin, and I loved them all, despite some of the challenges inherent in the breed.  I have raised bantams and large fowl alike.  
The way I understand it, this thread is not exclusively an appeal to all of us to work together to improve the show bird, but it is "to work together and improve the breed,"  That means: production, eggshell color, vigor, conformation, SOP issues--everything. Whether we show or not should not matter one whit.  Of course, it is laudable that there are people who promote the breed by showing their birds, but a great deal of credit needs to be sent in the direction of those who, while they may not be showing, keep working to produce good birds; and that includes developing new varieties.  
The Dutch are somewhat reluctant to accepting new varieties of Barnevelders and Welsummers, but the Germans are not, and the British are also more open to such innovations. Such differences do not give rise to a World War III, however, and neither should they here. Personally, I am immensely impressed by what Trisha has achieved, for instance, and I have seen pictures of some of Royce's birds that I have also admired. 
There is no reason whatsoever to get upset at the suggestion that we might consider revising our APA SOP when it comes to certain points. Those revisions happen all the time, and I would totally support a revision as far as the breast color of the male is concerned. I showed birds at the qualifying meet, I have raised the breed for years, and I have studied both Dutch material (I can read Dutch, and I have gone through stuff from the 1930s onward) as well as German and British material. In other words, I came to the breed not only through a theoretical avenue but also through years of experience.  Dr. Hans Schippers saw my birds and critiqued them and subsequently arranged to have shipped to me and Lowell Barber hatching eggs from top breeders in Holland. By the way, I sent birds to the city of Barneveld in NY state on the occasion of the city's anniversary, and those birds were offspring from the last shipment of Dutch hatching eggs.
In brief, I support a push for the improvement of the breed by all--exhibitors and non-exhibitors alike--in ALL ASPECTS of the breed: breeding practices, quantity and quality of eggs, conformation, etc.  
Happy Halloween to all.
Bjorn

Thank you Bjorn, and with that I'm going to go ahead and unsubscribe from the barnie thread. It's just not worth it to me to have to deal with the behavior that's been going on. I know who to call or email with any questions I have. Oh and I don't nor do I plan to show any of my birds. There's plenty of Show quality birds in my pens but I don't need ribbons to tell me I've done good.