Billy kid alpine goat panting and face-planting

[goats-n-oats]

Hi, I recently acquired a 7-month old alpine buck, Morris. Registered Alpine buck. He is a big 'husky' boy, probably 90 lbs; I wonder if he has become a tad overweight since I got him a month ago. He was in a 4*12' pen for a few weeks, then I started letting him run around the barn with my other billy goat and dog. Two things concern me: falling and panting. Today he fell twice when trying to jump off some goat furniture, and face planted. Once I found him lying stunned on the floor of a pen, and the second time he got up quickly off the gravel floor of the barn and resumed playing. A few days ago, I heard him crying in distress - and found him standing with his front leg caught in the upper mouth of his wooden feeder - apparently he tried to jump down and his foot got caught. I lifted up his body and let him release his leg. The bone could have been snapped in that position but he seemed ok after a minute. The other issue that concerns me is his panting - after 5-10 minutes of playful roughhousing and running with the other billy and dog in the larger barn, he starts panting hard, and shows his lips. He slows down. He stops panting once they stop playing. Neither his sister jenny, nor the other billy, nor my dog, are out of breath. Cognitively he seems fine; he learned quickly not to hit me with his horns and other positive behaviors. Any ideas?

 

[cassie]

This is not a definitive diagnosis by any means, but if this was my goat I would get some thiamine and treat him with it. Also some BoSe. White muscle (selenium deficiency) can cause muscle weakness and cardiac issues. Polio (thiamine deficiency) can cause some truly bizarre symptoms in rumenants. I wouldn't delay treatment. If either one of these are the problem you will know in short order. Response is rapid after treatment. Neither BoSe nor thiamine can hurt the goat but both white muscle and polio can be lethal if untreated.

 

[goats-n-oats]

Ok thanks for all your responses Cassia and MysteryChicken
- gums - good call - blueish on the top gum, pink on the bottom - will show vet on Monday
- breed - fairly certain he is not a fainting goat - is ADGA registered Alpine
- selenium and thiamine - he gets Manna Pro minerals, but that doesn't have thiamine - what dosage? are human-grade tablets ok?

 

[cassie]

Thank you Carrie! OK, I will try to get him in this weekend to the emergency vet. He does not press his head against the wall or appear to be blind. He does get fortified goat feed. Here are few videos of him - it's the black and white buck -
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjoP5kg8Ky3H-VYHmKdpyTalDtI6?e=g81YiD
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjoP5kg8Ky3H-VcJhFEIudk80Nid?e=RgHRqh
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjoP5kg8Ky3H-VhCD5yE2_Fyw23I?e=YeKI8m

Please bear in mind that I am not a vet, and it is a little hard to form a really good opinion without actually seeing the buck, but the way he moves around with no signs of stiffness makes me think white muscle is not the problem. The fact that he is alert and not stiff makes me think this is not an emergency and that he could wait until Monday. The shortness of breath is concerning but I don't think he will keel over from it between now and then.

The two most common causes of the shortness of breath and weakness are pneumonia and a bad heart. Is his breathing labored without exertion? Do his sides heave when he is just standing there? Does he have a fever? If so, prompt treatment is essential. However, he doesn't look like he has pneumonia to me but bear in mind I have been wrong before. In the video he is alert and active, his ears are up, and he just doesn't look sick like he would be if he had an infection. I would be very interested is what the vet has to say, particularly about his heart.

You might ask the former owner if he ever had a bad case of pneumonia when he was a youngster. In that case his lungs might be scarred.

 

[cassie]

Hi Cassie and Mystery chicken, took Morris to the vet. She said he has urinary crystals from too much grain. She noted he was panting (closed mouth) the entire time during the visit, so she thinks his panting is from stress. She did not have an explanation for the blue gums. His lungs sound good but she prescribed penicillin just in case. I mentioned white muscle, polio, lungworm, weak heart to her: she did not think any of these things were present but was willing to prescribe BoSe, do a fecal test for lungworm. I already got him the b complex gel for polio. Said he does not look overweight to her. This was a licensed vet at a state university. Thanks for all your ideas! I'm really glad I checked with this forum.

Thank you for the update. After looking at the video I didn't think he had white muscle either. He wasn't stiff and he didn't seem to have muscle pain. However, since selenium deficiency is so common a shot of Bo Se can't hurt.

I am certainly no expert on urinary calculi. In all the years I had goats I only had one case in spite of the fact I fed my bucks everything you are not supposed to, like grain and alfalfa hay. The one case i had was in a buck that had been deprived of water for some time. The automatic waterer in his pen malfunctioned and I didn't notice as soon as I should have.

As for the heart, I personally wouldn't rule it out simply because of the blue gums. If that is the problem you will find out soon enough. There isn't a lot you can or should do about it anyway. If the panting continues even after the urinary calculi is taken care of you might have him checked out again simply because if he does have a bad heart you wouldn't want to use him for breeding. Your vet is probably right though. If she listened to his heart and it sounded OK it is probably OK. I think he is a handsome buck.

 

[MysteryChicken]

Is it possible that he maybe a Fainting Goat? Just an idea.

 

[cassie]

When he starts panting after exertion, check the color of his gums. If they are bluish, it is a sign he is not getting enough oxygen. Both heart trouble and pneumonia can cause this. Heart trouble can be caused by white muscle or it may mean he has a bad heart. It happens.

 

[cassie]

Ok thanks for all your responses Cassia and MysteryChicken
- gums - good call - blueish on the top gum, pink on the bottom - will show vet on Monday
- breed - fairly certain he is not a fainting goat - is ADGA registered Alpine
- selenium and thiamine - he gets Manna Pro minerals, but that doesn't have thiamine - what dosage? are human-grade tablets ok?

You need to get thiamine from the vet. In a pinch you can use massive doses of B1 vitamins. Since you are going to the vet anyway, ask for a bottle of thiamine and some BoSe. They are injectables. Neither are expensive and both are good to have on hand. I can't imagine why he wouldn't give them to you.

This has nothing to do with your buck, or at least I hope it doesn't. Years ago, I had a lamb I kept treating for pneumonia. He had many of the symptoms of pneumonia, like shortness of breath, difficulty breathing etc. When we butchered him, we found out what the problem was. He had a bad heart.

 

[goats-n-oats]

You need to get thiamine from the vet. In a pinch you can use massive doses of B1 vitamins. Since you are going to the vet anyway, ask for a bottle of thiamine and some BoSe. They are injectables. Neither are expensive and both are good to have on hand. I can't imagine why he wouldn't give them to you.

This has nothing to do with your buck, or at least I hope it doesn't. Years ago, I had a lamb I kept treating for pneumonia. He had many of the symptoms of pneumonia, like shortness of breath, difficulty breathing etc. When we butchered him, we found out what the problem was. He had a bad heart.

Thanks Cassie - sorry about your buck. This won't work until Monday? https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/durvet-vitamin-b-complex-oral-gel-1227575
I will ask the vet to bring both injectables when he comes.
I'm still curious about the lack of coordination.
Should he not be bred?

 

[cassie]

Both polio and white muscle can cause a lack of coordination. If he goes down call the vet ASAP. Neither polio nor white muscle will affect his value as a breeding buck. Obviously a bad heart will. I realize the weekend is coming up, but personally I would be nervous about waiting until Monday. If it turns out the problem is a bad heart, waiting until Monday won't make a difference. However, with polio and white muscle it might. Just keep an eye on him. I forgot to mention this. With polio it is very common for the animal to press its head against the wall (because it has a headache) and appear to be blind. This last is due to pressure on the optic nerve. From your description and not seeing the animal, my money is on white muscle or a bad heart. I will be very interested in hearing what the vet has to say.