Hi guys! I'm sorry, I'm too lazy to read through 980+ pages, but can someone tell me the difference (if there is one) between a Black Copper Marans, and a French Black Copper Marans? What makes a French breed more French?
Black Copper Marans discussion thread
- Thread starter geebs
- Start date
People tend to call birds with feathered legs FRENCH. But that is also the American standard so here they should just be called Copper Marans.... not French or English (clean legs)
Yes, DMRippy is correct that many people will sell their clean shanked Marans as English Marans and their feathered shanked Marans as French Marans.
I have always felt that selling clean shanked Marans from a breeding program that is selecting for feathered shanks is in the grey area on how people represent what they are selling. I feel they should be sold as cull if the breeder is not selecting for clean shanks. Many Cuckoo Marans lines are clean shanked and some breeders would rather never see the Cuckoo variety be an accepted APA variety than to breed for feathered shanks since the feathers can get tips broken off and muddy from foraging. So both are found but it general the term English and French standard to indicate whether a birds is clean shanked or feathered shanks just confuses people.
The Marans are now a breed recognized by APA and have their own standard (feathered shanks like the French or country of origin). It would be more clear if people would list clean shanked if they their Marans don't follow the APA standard for feathered shanks.
The APA standards require a five year minimum process to approve a standard. During that period the standard is revised and adapted to make it as correct as possible to describe the breed. The process helps eliminate translation/language barrier errors in standards coming from other languages (French) and provides everyone a common goal to use to improve the breed in North America.
When Farmer Brown in breeding to one standard (lets say backs that rise from the shoulder to the root of the tail) and Farmer Smith is breeding to another standard (i.e. downward sloping backs) they can not trade stock to bring in improvements from each others lines with out it ruining what they have accomplished. If they breed to the same standard they can swap stock and befit from each others work to improve their own line.
Even though the Marans has now been a recognized APA breed for 3 years there are groups out their that refuse to read the APA standard and still are reading the information that comes from the French breeder and breeding to their own interpretation of the information from France. Many of the people that fit into that mind set list their birds as French Marans to emphasis that they are using the French Standard as their guide and NOT reading the APA standard. They claim that APA doesn't have a corner on the market as far as standards go. From what I see they seem to feel that since APA is not French that they can't possibly know how to improve the Marans breed. It seems a little self serving though. If they take one of their Marans to exhibition and they win the show they say they haven't lost all faith in the APA. If they take a Marans to a show and it gets beat out by another bird they claim that the winner birds were breed to the APA standard and so they were at a disadvantage in the Judging since the judges don't follow the French Standard. When you ask them for differences between the APA and French standard they just tell you that they don't read the APA standard and don't know. As one who has read the APA standard I would suggest that the two standards describe the exact same bird.
I think that those that know their Marans don't need to list them as French, feather shanked Marans, etc. They are just plain Marans. They cull anything that doesn't meet the standard and only sell birds that are good examples of the breed.
I have always felt that selling clean shanked Marans from a breeding program that is selecting for feathered shanks is in the grey area on how people represent what they are selling. I feel they should be sold as cull if the breeder is not selecting for clean shanks. Many Cuckoo Marans lines are clean shanked and some breeders would rather never see the Cuckoo variety be an accepted APA variety than to breed for feathered shanks since the feathers can get tips broken off and muddy from foraging. So both are found but it general the term English and French standard to indicate whether a birds is clean shanked or feathered shanks just confuses people.
The Marans are now a breed recognized by APA and have their own standard (feathered shanks like the French or country of origin). It would be more clear if people would list clean shanked if they their Marans don't follow the APA standard for feathered shanks.
The APA standards require a five year minimum process to approve a standard. During that period the standard is revised and adapted to make it as correct as possible to describe the breed. The process helps eliminate translation/language barrier errors in standards coming from other languages (French) and provides everyone a common goal to use to improve the breed in North America.
When Farmer Brown in breeding to one standard (lets say backs that rise from the shoulder to the root of the tail) and Farmer Smith is breeding to another standard (i.e. downward sloping backs) they can not trade stock to bring in improvements from each others lines with out it ruining what they have accomplished. If they breed to the same standard they can swap stock and befit from each others work to improve their own line.
Even though the Marans has now been a recognized APA breed for 3 years there are groups out their that refuse to read the APA standard and still are reading the information that comes from the French breeder and breeding to their own interpretation of the information from France. Many of the people that fit into that mind set list their birds as French Marans to emphasis that they are using the French Standard as their guide and NOT reading the APA standard. They claim that APA doesn't have a corner on the market as far as standards go. From what I see they seem to feel that since APA is not French that they can't possibly know how to improve the Marans breed. It seems a little self serving though. If they take one of their Marans to exhibition and they win the show they say they haven't lost all faith in the APA. If they take a Marans to a show and it gets beat out by another bird they claim that the winner birds were breed to the APA standard and so they were at a disadvantage in the Judging since the judges don't follow the French Standard. When you ask them for differences between the APA and French standard they just tell you that they don't read the APA standard and don't know. As one who has read the APA standard I would suggest that the two standards describe the exact same bird.
I think that those that know their Marans don't need to list them as French, feather shanked Marans, etc. They are just plain Marans. They cull anything that doesn't meet the standard and only sell birds that are good examples of the breed.
Doesn't it get even more complicated when you have varieties of Marans that don't have an APA standard? For example, I just hatched out three Birchen Marans that were advertised as English stock and therefore clean legged. I'd like to have a Birchen as well as a BCM breeding program and I still can't decide if I'm going to get feathered Birchens to breed for feathered birds or if I'm going to stick to the featherless variety.
Last edited:
Zanna
Songster
The approved APA Marans Standard requires feathered legs. BCM, Wheaton and Whites are now approved colour varieties (I think that is it so far). The Standard won't change as the different coloured varieties become approved.Doesn't it get even more complicated when you have varieties of Marans that don't have an APA standard? For example, I just hatched out three Birchen Marans that were advertised as English stock and therefore clean legged. I'd like to have a Birchen as well as a BCM breeding program and I still can't decide if I'm going to get feathered Birchens to breed for feathered birds or if I'm going to stick to the featherless variety.
All the previous posts being said (written?)...properly feathered shanks and outer toes bred together will sometimes produce a clean-legged chick which does not meet SOP. Those birds are still great dark egg layers with all the other wonderful Marans characteristics and are welcomed into layer and pet flocks. Just not breeders!
Ah. I think that means I will be on the lookout for some Birchen girls with very shaggy legs.
It shouldn't get more complicated if you have a variety of Marans with out an APA standard. After a breed has been accepted by APA all that they will change from one variety to another is the color or the type of comb.
You should ask the seller where they got their Birchen stock from.
You should ask the seller where they got their Birchen stock from.
My husband found them. Regardless of claimed bloodline, it does look like pretty much all of them are clean shanked.
- Aug 23, 2013
- 14
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I'm new to the thread. I have a BCM hen that is about a year and a half and weighs 4.4lbs. Is that a normal weight for a hen this age? I've read that typically a full grown chicken will weigh between 5-6 lbs. I've done everything I can to fatten her up but no luck. I have one other hen, a delaware that weights 4.6lbs. They do not have worms and are laying daily.
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