Blood in poo or just intestine?

[GuppyTJ]

No, the Corid will not harm them if it isn't Coccidiosis.

Everyone,

Corid doesn't harm them, yet, it can (not will, can) create unwanted side effects. For example, it can create a reduced immune system which can let other things (like dormant Marek's) get a foot hold. It depletes Vitamins A and K during the dosage period of 5 days. After that 5 days, many references suggest a vitamin supplement. I'm not suggesting that the original person posting not use Corid, just sharing what I know. Most of this information came from "The Chicken Health Handbook" by Gail Daerow.

I share this because I may (again, who can say for sure without a necropsy) have experienced this myself, so now I'm more cautious prior to administering drugs as my first action. My coop flooded during a monster storm (which I have since fixed by digging ditches). Then, I got what I think might have been cocci so I treated with Corid. Almost within days, I had one chick come down with something i never figured out what it was, but the symptoms were lethargy, green/yellow poo, not eating or drinking. This lasted for 4 days and then that chicken recovered. Then, during that time the chicken with green poo was sick, a second one had an outbreak of Marek's (classic Marek's symptoms). I culled that chicken. Everyone has been healthy since which was 3 weeks ago. Then, this morning when cleaning up last night's poo, I noticed I have 1 chicken with bright red bloody poo. I believe I've narrowed it down to one chicken that got into my compost pile and ate about several (maybe 4) cherry pits yesterday. But, he's not exhibiting any other symptoms, just happily going about his day. None of the others are acting sick in any way either. So... I'm trying to wait just maybe another day and see before treating the flock for cocci with the Corid.

My situation is different as all our situations are unique, but thought I'd share this in case it helps others. Treating the chickens with drugs is often the right thing to do but it also can cause them various stresses and reduced immunity to other things. Mine are just at the point of lay so they're already stressed by the maturing process, mating, egg laying, etc. Maybe I'll regret not treating with Corid right away but last time, I think I reacted too quickly.

Just sharing my story and perspective, in case it's helpful to others.

Guppy

 

[ten chicks]

Everyone,

Corid doesn't harm them, yet, it can (not will, can) create unwanted side effects. For example, it can create a reduced immune system which can let other things (like dormant Marek's) get a foot hold. It depletes Vitamins A and K during the dosage period of 5 days. After that 5 days, many references suggest a vitamin supplement. I'm not suggesting that the original person posting not use Corid, just sharing what I know. Most of this information came from "The Chicken Health Handbook" by Gail Daerow.

I share this because I may (again, who can say for sure without a necropsy) have experienced this myself, so now I'm more cautious prior to administering drugs as my first action. My coop flooded during a monster storm (which I have since fixed by digging ditches). Then, I got what I think might have been cocci so I treated with Corid. Almost within days, I had one chick come down with something i never figured out what it was, but the symptoms were lethargy, green/yellow poo, not eating or drinking. This lasted for 4 days and then that chicken recovered. Then, during that time the chicken with green poo was sick, a second one had an outbreak of Marek's (classic Marek's symptoms). I culled that chicken. Everyone has been healthy since which was 3 weeks ago. Then, this morning when cleaning up last night's poo, I noticed I have 1 chicken with bright red bloody poo. I believe I've narrowed it down to one chicken that got into my compost pile and ate about several (maybe 4) cherry pits yesterday. But, he's not exhibiting any other symptoms, just happily going about his day. None of the others are acting sick in any way either. So... I'm trying to wait just maybe another day and see before treating the flock for cocci with the Corid.

My situation is different as all our situations are unique, but thought I'd share this in case it helps others. Treating the chickens with drugs is often the right thing to do but it also can cause them various stresses and reduced immunity to other things. Mine are just at the point of lay so they're already stressed by the maturing process, mating, egg laying, etc. Maybe I'll regret not treating with Corid right away but last time, I think I reacted too quickly.

Just sharing my story and perspective, in case it's helpful to others.

Guppy

The only side effect is after long term use,possible thiamine(vitamine B1)deficiency. This information comes from Veterinary manuals that i have studied. Your chick that died in above mentioned post,had classic Cocci symptoms. Coccidiosis is the leading cause of deaths in chicks,kills very fast,but is so easily controlled with proper medication. I would never advise anyone to wait and see,by that time your chicks may be dead.

 

[GuppyTJ]

The only side effect is after long term use,possible thiamine(vitamine B1)deficiency. This information comes from Veterinary manuals that i have studied. Your chick that died in above mentioned post,had classic Cocci symptoms. Coccidiosis is the leading cause of deaths in chicks,kills very fast,but is so easily controlled with proper medication. I would never advise anyone to wait and see,by that time your chicks may be dead.

Hi Ten Chicks,

I didn't mean to be disagreeable, I was only sharing my experience and my approach. We each might do things differently, which is why this forum is so helpful as someone finding their own way can hear different approaches. All of our situations are different too, which leads to different courses of action. Yes, cocci is a killer, no doubt, yet as I shared in my description, there can be other extenuating circumstances. Just sharing other things to think about is all.

Could you share the titles of your vet manuals? I'm always up for another great chicken health resource. I shared my resource above, which states Vitamin A and K but I'm sure it could be B as well. Many scholarly resources indicating the use of coccidiostats, even for just the 5 day period, degrades vitamins A and K. I'd have to look it up but I believe the reason is that several of the protozoa types use these vitamins to multiply and the coccidiostats work by depleting these nutrients.

But in case it helps, I use a lot of different scholarly resources so in case it helps others, here are a few of them. I only use scholarly resources as there is so much on the internet (and in BYC) that is not necessarily factual. I always try to remember to state my source too so people know where I'm getting the info.

http://avianmedicine.net/publication_cat/avian-medicine/

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/poultry/coccidiosis/overview_of_coccidiosis_in_poultry.html

http://www.cabi.org/isc/fulltextpdf/2009/20093257328.pdf

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps044

In addition, I don't understand when you say that my chicken died from "classic cocci symptoms" as I didn't share what the symptoms were! The symptoms/conditions were: the perfect age for Marek's, unbalanced, difficulty walking, eventual paralysis with one leg forward, one back, irregular iris but eating well and acting fairly normal otherwise. The iris is the tell-tale symptom, the others could be something else, but the iris... Marek's, I'm afraid. I only wish it had been cocci as Marek's is untreatable and results in pretty much 100% mortality when it moves from dormant to the active stage of the virus. The other chicken, the one with the florescent green poo, tinged with yellow, was possibly due to a toxin she ingested. I free range (no run, no fence) so she could have gotten something that made her sick. Even moldy grain can cause this. But nowhere does florescent green poo with some yellow in it show up as a symptom for cocci, not that I've ever run across at least. If you have a reference for this, I'd be interested in that one too. Always up for learning new things.

It can be challenging to diagnose chicken disorders. Many things look like other things. It's great to hear different approaches and perspectives. That's what I like most about learning from everyone here.

In the morning, I'll have a good indication on if my decision to not medicate with Corid was the right one or not. I wrote down where everyone was roosting so I will be able to confirm which chicken it is and isolate that one. I tried to keep an eye on them today and on their poo as I did my farm chores and I didn't/couldn't find any red poo. I even watched every one of them poo at least once and checked it out, no blood. But I know cocci doesn't produce blood on every poo. Ah well... time will tell. I hope my backyard diagnosis was right...!

Thanks much,
Guppy

 

[AK Baha]

Here is a poo chart that I have found helpful. http://chat.allotment.org/index.php?topic=17568.0

 

[ten chicks]

Hi Ten Chicks,

I didn't mean to be disagreeable, I was only sharing my experience and my approach. We each might do things differently, which is why this forum is so helpful as someone finding their own way can hear different approaches. All of our situations are different too, which leads to different courses of action.

Could you share the titles of your vet manuals? I'm always up for another great chicken health resource. I shared my resource above, which states Vitamin A and K. Many scholarly resources indicating the use of coccidiostats, even for just the 5 day period, degrades vitamins A and K. I'd have to look it up but I believe the reason is that several of the protozoa types use these vitamins to multiply and the coccidiostats work by depleting these nutrients.

But in case it helps, I use a lot of different scholarly resources so in case it helps others, here are a few of them. I only use scholarly resources as there is so much on the internet (and in BYC) that is not necessarily factual. I always try to remember to state my source too so people know where I'm getting the info.

http://avianmedicine.net/publication_cat/avian-medicine/

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/poultry/coccidiosis/overview_of_coccidiosis_in_poultry.html

http://www.cabi.org/isc/fulltextpdf/2009/20093257328.pdf

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps044

In addition, I don't understand when you say that my chicken died from "classic cocci symptoms" as I didn't share what the symptoms were! You maybe misread? The symptoms/conditions were: the perfect age for Marek's, unbalanced, difficulty walking, eventual paralysis with one leg forward, one back, irregular iris but eating well and acting fairly normal otherwise. The iris is the tell-tale symptom, the others could be something else, but the iris... Marek's, I'm afraid. I only wish it had been cocci as Marek's is untreatable and results in pretty much 100% mortality when it moves from dormant to the active stage of the virus. The other chicken, the one with the florescent green poo, tinged with yellow, was possibly due to a toxin she ingested. I free range (no run, no fence) so she could have gotten something that made her sick. Even moldy grain can cause this. But nowhere does florescent green poo with some yellow in it show up as a symptom for cocci, not that I've ever run across at least. If you have a reference for this, I'd be interested in that one too. Always up for learning new things.

It can be challenging to diagnose chicken disorders. Many things look like other things. It's great to hear different approaches and perspectives. That's what I like most about learning from everyone here.

Thanks much,
Guppy

I agree that everyone has their own way of doing things and suggestions,other ideas is the purpose of this forum. My concern is when someone states or suggests that Amprolium can be harmful,will discourage people from using it. Amprolium is your first line of defense against Coccidiosis. Broody raised chicks can also get cocci,i purchased silkies at 2 weeks of age from a breeder,they were raised by a hen,after observing them for only about an hour i knew they had cocci. One little one had severe bloody poop,i immediately gave chicks Amprolium and treated all my other girls,i did not have any deaths. Amprolium is only a thiamine blocker,Cocci parasite needs thiamine to reproduce. Amprolium blocks the thiamine,starving the parasite and stopping reproduction. Once reproduction stops,the parasite is brought back under control. Medicating with Amprolium for 5 days will not cause any harm to chickens. The chick i was referring to in your post,you mentioned she was not eating,had yellow poop ,etc. these are symptoms of cocci. Yes, vitamins A and K can become slightly depleted,that is why vitamins are recommended after treatment,but they are not necessary. If your chicks are feed a healthy diet,they recover extremely fast,i have never seen or heard of any side effects from Amprolium. I cannot understand why anyone would wait,when the outcome will probably be death. Cocci kills very fast,but it is easily brought back under control with medication. Most birds have some Cocci in their small intestines,only becomes a problem when they have an overload/outbreak,then we medicate to bring it back under control. There are 9 strains of cocci,so an overload can happen at anytime.

 

[GuppyTJ]

I agree that everyone has their own way of doing things and suggestions,other ideas is the purpose of this forum. My concern is when someone states or suggests that Amprolium can be harmful,will discourage people from using it. Amprolium is your first line of defense against Coccidiosis. Broody raised chicks can also get cocci,i purchased silkies at 2 weeks of age from a breeder,they were raised by a hen,after observing them for only about an hour i knew they had cocci. One little one had severe bloody poop,i immediately gave chicks Amprolium and treated all my other girls,i did not have any deaths. Amprolium is only a thiamine blocker,Cocci parasite needs thiamine to reproduce. Amprolium blocks the thiamine,starving the parasite and stopping reproduction. Once reproduction stops,the parasite is brought back under control. Medicating with Amprolium for 5 days will not cause any harm to chickens. The chick i was referring to in your post,you mentioned she was not eating,had yellow poop ,etc. these are symptoms of cocci. Yes, vitamins A and K can become slightly depleted,that is why vitamins are recommended after treatment,but they are not necessary. If your chicks are feed a healthy diet,they recover extremely fast,i have never seen or heard of any side effects from Amprolium. I cannot understand why anyone would wait,when the outcome will probably be death. Cocci kills very fast,but it is easily brought back under control with medication. Most birds have some Cocci in their small intestines,only becomes a problem when they have an overload/outbreak,then we medicate to bring it back under control. There are 9 strains of cocci,so an overload can happen at anytime.

OK, I see what you're trying to say. But I didn't say Amprolium was "harmful," just that there are side effects and I stated what they are and my experiences. Corid (brand name for Amprolium) so much affects the immune system that some scholarly references suggest also treating with an antibiotic "to guard against secondary infection" as stated in the Chicken Health Handbook, p. 261. I am simply suggesting one considers the full spectrum of ramifications associated with using medications. Most drugs have some type of negative effect on the chicken's natural immune system. Antibiotics, for example, kill not only the bad but good bacteria, causing lowered immunity. It's just a different way of thinking and considering the problem and solution and I'm sorry as I must not have made my points very well. In any case, please do share the title, author, etc. for those vet manuals if you have time. And the resource that states green poo (practically glowed in the dark!) is one of the classic signs of cocci.

Oh, I almost forgot. The chicken with the green poo got it 3 days AFTER I finished the 5 days of Corid.

Thanks and again, I didn't mean to offend.
Guppy

 

[mithious]

Here is a poo chart that I have found helpful. http://chat.allotment.org/index.php?topic=17568.0

I never thought I would have a chicken poo chart in my favorites, but I do

It is a huge help!!! I am also fighting a bought of cocci, and am treating with corrid. I have vitamins on hand, for when they are done with the treatment, picked them up at the same time as the corrid. I also waited a night, and tried save a chick first, before starting the corrid, as mine had no bloody poo, but many of the other signs of cocci. I decided to treat, just to be safe and glad I did, as my lot are getting better! So it WAS cocci in my guys. Was hard without the bloody poo. It's hard to know for sure when they are sick, I can pretend to talk chicken, but sure don't understand when they talk back

 

[GuppyTJ]

It is hard to diagnose many of these things! Glad to hear you also waited a night, makes me at least know I'm not alone in my thinking.

So many chicken issues have the same symptoms (droopy, not wanting to eat, lethargy, diarrhea...) Every once in awhile, there is a key symptom that really points to one thing or another but often the symptoms are the same. I highly recommend the Chicken Health Handbook as it has loads of details on most every virus, bacteria, protozoa (which is what cocci is), parasite, fungus, toxin. It even lists different issues by symptom (mobility or changes in poo or respiratory) by most common age that chickens get it and how common the illness is (rare, very rare, common, etc.) In the description per disease, it says what the incubation period is, morbidity rate, mortality rate, symptoms, treatment, transmission method, etc. I bought mine used on Amazon so not very expensive and for me, worth the money.

If anyone has other great health/illness books, please share! I've got most of the web sites I think but I really like the completeness of a book.

Thanks,
Guppy

 

[GuppyTJ]

... It can be challenging to diagnose chicken disorders. Many things look like other things. It's great to hear different approaches and perspectives. That's what I like most about learning from everyone here.

In the morning, I'll have a good indication on if my decision to not medicate with Corid was the right one or not. I wrote down where everyone was roosting so I will be able to confirm which chicken it is and isolate that one. I tried to keep an eye on them today and on their poo as I did my farm chores and I didn't/couldn't find any red poo. I even watched every one of them poo at least once and checked it out, no blood. But I know cocci doesn't produce blood on every poo. Ah well... time will tell. I hope my backyard diagnosis was right...!

Thanks much,
Guppy

Hi Everyone,

No blood this morning (yeah!). I did more research and learned that there are other things that can cause bloody poo. Campylobacteriosis, ulcerated enteritis and infectious bursal disease, all considered "common" worldwide. Camp and ulcerated entritis are caused by a bacteria, infectious bursal disease is caused by a virus. Nothing was pointing to cocci for my situation. My birds free range and cocci is much less common in free range birds. Plus, I put shovels of dirt, sod, grass and all in their brooder starting at 2 weeks old so they could build up immunity. Finally, there are no other cocci symptoms, no listlessness, no droopiness, no huddling with ruffled feather, and they all seem to be eating and drinking normally. It could be cocci but it could be one of these other 3 things too... or something else.

So now... what did/do I have? So hard to diagnose without a fecal test. I'll keep an eye on them today as much as I can. That's about all that makes sense for me to do right now as far as I can tell.

Hope this is helpful to others,
Guppy

 

[jhughett]

How did everything turn out? Just wanted to see how your feather babies were fairing?